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The Ratzinger Nazi Pope Debate
I can already see the battle-lines forming around this issue of Cardinal Ratzinger / Pope Benedict XVI’s supposed Nazi past.
On one side, you have people who are alarmed over the fact that our newest Pope was a member of the Hitler Youth, and fought in the Wehrmacht, the German army. On the other, you have people point out that membership in the Hitler Youth was mandatory, as was his drafting in the Wehrmacht - which he purportedly deserted towards the end of the war.
I understand and appreciate both sides, so please don’t email me accusing otherwise. However, just because something is “mandatory” doesn’t make it right. This same argument, you recall, is frequently used on behalf Nazi officers, soldiers and those who ran the death camps: “We were just following orders.”
If you killed someone or did something horrible because somebody told you to do it, does that make it better? In my eyes, it makes it worse. Because not only did you do something horrible, but you surrendered your own free will, your ability to make decisions and and responsibility for your actions to an outside force.
I understand the world is not a perfect place, and that we all do things we don’t want or mean to. But that doesn’t make it right. We do have options. Non-violent resistance for one - of which Jesus himself was one of the greatest teachers of all time.
Aside from that, our leaders are symbols. They represent what we should strive for, and in a sense an ideal after which we should pattern ourselves. This doesn’t always work out (as in Bush’s illustrious case) but in the ideological and symbolically laden world of religious leaders, they ought to be even more accutely aware of this. To choose a pope who had affiliations with the Nazi party - even if he wasn’t a formal party member himself - is a slap in the face to everyone who got up and fought against the Nazis and what they stood for.
Nevermind the Jewish population of the world, who obviously suffered tremendously under them. Pope John Paul II was supposedly the first pope EVER to even set foot in a synagogue. And now we have a quasi-Nazi Pope? Expect Jewish-Catholic relations and religious openness to take one enormous step back - especially with Mel Gibson riling people up once again via The Passion with the age old idea that the Jews were somehow “responsible” for Christ’s death.
For the Catholic cardinal to choose Ratzinger, despite his many qualifications, is a pretty clear sign to the rest of the world that they’re about ready to fire up that time machine and start heading backwards.
UPDATE!
Here’s the only good thing I’ve seen online about Ratzinger’s Nazi past. It is from a Times Online article from the 17th of April.
Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.
He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951.
“Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said. “Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.”
Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”
The debate is sure to rage on…
UPDATE!
A wonderfully astute reader also brings up the following extremely plausible explanation of why Ratzinger deserted to the Allies.
Ratzinger probably “deserted” the Wermacht for the same reasons many other German soldiers did near the end of the war: they were losing and, rather than being killed or captured by the Russians (basically same thing), they deserted and gave themselves up to one of the non-Communist Allied forces. Being captured by the Russians would, for a devout Catholic like Ratzinger, be the equivalent of falling into the hands of the Devil.
This adds another wrinkle into Ratzinger’s connection to the Fatima mysteries - which are vigorously anti-Russia. Well-played.
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April 19th, 2005 at 5:59 pm
Ratzinger probably “deserted” the Wermacht for the same reasons many other German soldiers did near the end of the war: they were losing and, rather than being killed or captured by the Russians (basically same thing), they deserted and gave themselves up to one of the non-Communist Allied forces. Being captured by the Russians would, for a devout Catholic like Ratzinger, be the equivalent of falling into the hands of the Devil. As well, as the war ended, many Nazis were assisted in getting out of Europe to North, Central, and South America, by the Vatican.
Ratzinger’s right-wing fundamentalist statements and Medieval and Middle Ages Church policy enforcement indicate that the education and training he had in the Hitler Youth and the Wermacht had a fundamental influence and effect on his thinking. Anyone who questions the Church in any way is censored, censured, can be brought before the Court of the Inquisition and may be excommunicated. I wonder when he is going to reintroduce the Inquisition’s truth extraction techniques?
April 19th, 2005 at 6:08 pm
From a public relations standpoint, the choice of Ratziner is a slap in the face to Jews around the world. John Paul had lifelong friends who were Jewish. Your statement that the papacy is taking a giant step backwards is so true — and what a tragic step.
April 19th, 2005 at 7:29 pm
Let’s be clear. Ratzinger WAS a Nazi and and no spin by the Catholic can negate the fact!! He is part of a church that is outdated and out of touch with reality. Power, money, and control—that’s what he and the organization are about. The sexual abuse cover-up, their treatment of women—these are all indemic problems. They will not change with this pope!!!
April 19th, 2005 at 9:15 pm
Ratzinger was a Nazi and a wonderful religious politician. Immediately upon his election to Pope, not many people noticed the “green” smoke billowing from the Vatican signaling that Ratzinger was in the tower counting his money - 40 pieces of silver. The Catholic people have been betrayed. If Benedict XVI dies tomorrow, I won’t shed a tear.
April 19th, 2005 at 9:21 pm
For those looking for a new Pope that would bring an age of enlightenment to the world we look as though we might be sorely dissapointed…..but let see by this man’s actions.
But here is something questionable about the Pope’s claim….
Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.
But the dates are wrong transportation of the Hungarian Jewish population did not begin until later. Hungarian Jews enjoyed many freedoms not found elsewhere in Europe at this time and Hungary actively resisted the transportation of Jews up till this time.
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/magazine/magazine_new/mag_33/60.html
The transports to Auschwitz began on 15 May, and continued until July. In all, 147 freight trains packed with over 435,000 women, men, children and elderly set out from points spanning the entire country.
April 19th, 2005 at 9:22 pm
Guess nobody bothered to check the front page of The Jerusalem Post today. They dismiss all talk of his Nazi past and said, basically, if this is what an anti-Semite is, “we should be so lucky.” Investigators from Yad Vashem found nothing to say about him. I’m far from a fan of his, but fair’s fair. And if he’s acceptable to Jewish opinion, then you cannot bring up such objections unless you yourself are Jewish. And then, you might wish to study the behavior of the Judenrat, or, closer to home, see how little even the Yiddish-language newspapers had to say about the concentration camps. Let him among you without sin cast the first stone. And non-violent resistance to the Nazis? That’s a fantasy that a smug little Gandhi could pull on the Brits in India, but in Germany? A sure invitation to certain death. This man was 17 when the war ended.
April 19th, 2005 at 9:33 pm
As a Catholic I’ve anxiously awaited JPIIs death so that my religion could experience some form of enlightenment. Perhaps some more tolerance…not continued tolerance for child molestors but just a hint of progression. I won’t have a good night’s sleep until this Pope is tits-up in the grottos. Better luck next time.
April 19th, 2005 at 9:45 pm
I can’t believe someone who was in the Hitler Youth is now pope. What are on earth is the world coming to? The last time I checked the motto of the HJ was “blood and honor.” That is just lovely. The Vatican and the cardinals really did themselves up really good on this one. Never fired a shot huh? Super. I could care less if Ratzinger is transitional Pope or not. He ought to issue himself a pair of Jack Boots when he rolls around in the Pope-Mobile. He can find an old HJ arm band at most local gun shows to complete the ensemble. All of the Catholic people need to get ourselves back together again and take charge of our church. We should send up some “red” smoke to signal our protest to the election. Better yet, we should send up some “blue” smoke to signal the fact that the Vatican has us all by the balls. I am professionally embarassed. With all of the child molesting going on today by people who claim to be representatives of God, I say for shame! If these people are all Christians, I would imagine hell is full of Christians. The church has laid down enough money settling law suits to sink a battle ship. The guy who said we ought to send forth some “green” smoke to signify that the vatican is counting its money is right on!We all need to be on our knees asking for forgiveness.
April 19th, 2005 at 10:51 pm
I recalled this exchange as I read the account of a wartime experience by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now head of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in his memoirs, “Milestones” (Ignatius, $15). In September 1944, as a 17-year-old schoolboy, he was drafted into a labor battalion commanded by fanatical Austrian “Old Nazis.”
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=663
But he had deserted in April 1944….has the Times got it wrong???
My understanding of “labor battalions” were they were punishment battalions???
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/100600/100600k.htm
Anti semitic ??? I don’t know….read this link
April 19th, 2005 at 11:06 pm
This whole thing makes no sense to me….I know he was only a 17year old youth …why was he drafted into a labor battalion…was this punishment or was he a guard???
http://www.edwardvictor.com/Holocaust/hungary_main.htm
April 20th, 2005 at 6:04 am
just a thought regarding this potential nazi-pope: if my facts are straight, ratzinger was elected pope on april 19th, the eve of hitler’s birthday (april 20th). i concede that it may be a weak conspiracy theory, but it peaked my interest nonetheless…
April 20th, 2005 at 11:00 am
[…] er formally of the Nazi party. Again, yes and? [For a more detailed analysis of the “Ratzinger Nazi Debate” go here]. Anyway, some claim he deserte […]
April 20th, 2005 at 2:13 pm
So let me get this right, Ratzinger was in the Nazi youth and chose not to participate in their deplorable actions. He also decided not to come out against the Nazi regime because he felt it was fruitless. As stated above by another poster, Ratzinger probably chose not to be openly against the Nazi regime because it would result in death. Well lets just give him hugs and kisses for that, and i mean that in a most extreme sarcastic way. Countless people lost their lives for hiding Jews and assisting in their esacpe. These people consisted of civilians and Nazi military alike. They believed that Hitler was a maniac and new if they openly opposed him they would die. So they chose to use subterfuge to help those who were being persecuted. Sympathizers new that death was a consequence if they were caught, and many died willingly so others could be saved.
Ratzinger supposedly chose not to support the Nazi regime, but he didnt help those being persecuted either. He claims that he watched Jews being herded into camps, did he attempt to help them i any way? No, because he didnt want to die. He deserted the German Army because he didn’t want to die. He didn’t participate in active combat because he didnt want to die. But he had no problem standing by and watching others being taken away to certain death.
Ratzinger is a coward.
April 20th, 2005 at 2:37 pm
Remember, as well, that this man, according to Catholics, represents the highest-level of human character and morality. He is suppose to be the closest person to g-d on earth. Yet he couldn’t resist joining the Nazis because resistance might lead to death? I know in Judiasm we have countless stories of Rabbis who chose to die rather than disavow their faith. But this guy couldn’t resist? I’m only somewhat OK with this excuss for the “average” person, but for an individual that is meant to represent the best of mankind? The church has to be highly delusional, anti-semetic or both!
April 20th, 2005 at 5:16 pm
“The church has to be highly delusional, anti-semetic or both!”
- CORRECT!
Pope Benedict XVI 265th leader of the Roman Catholic Church, the Grand Inquisiter, Hitler Youth, Antichrist Superstar!
http://www.cafepress.com/popedope
April 20th, 2005 at 9:46 pm
I will defend the Pope to the end. You people are ignorant. As they say, let him without sin cast the first stone. If this Pope was part of destroying that satanic institution, then he has my vote all day long. My only regret is that he wasn’t there flipping the switch on the gas chambers. That would have solidified his resolve to stamp out the infidel and I’m a little concerned that he will pussy-out in the face of real danger. We can only hope that he will take the same recourse towards the terrorists and continue this path of intolerance and human destruction. John Paul was an idiot for attempting to engage in interfaith discourses. If Benedict can bring the terrorists and homosexuals to their knees, then I can certainly live with the fact that he had a hand in killing 6 million Jews. Who doesn’t enjoy a good execution? Hopefully he will catch Bin Laden and string him up in Saint Peter’s square. Strike up the Crusades, Benedict, your faithful are ready to march. If you can’t beat em, join em. Viva la Pope…or something like that.
April 20th, 2005 at 9:48 pm
PS Please note the dripping sarcasm in that last message. I have had it with the Catholic Church and all the heresy they stand for.
April 20th, 2005 at 10:05 pm
People must remember that the Church is a man-made institution. The stories in the bible have merit only in that they are stories meant to relate a point. Jesus may have walked the Earth, but his existence as we know it today evolved from Constantine Christianity in the Early 1st Millenium. The story of Jesus being a carpenter from poor roots is actually a bunch of baloney. Constantine thought a poor man’s story would appeal to the masses, so he rewrote the legend of Jesus so he could manipulate the commoners through religion (has anything changed???) Jesus was a rich man who faked his own death on the cross by sending a look alike to take his place. Remember how he mysteriously predicted everything. He conspired with Judas to lead the guards to the bum in the garden. Judas then kissed the bum instead of Jesus, and the bum was then arrested by the Romans, convicted, and crucified. Now normally the crucified people were left to hang out and rot for weeks to serve as a warning for others. Not in this case. Before people could examine too closely that this was not the Lord on the Cross, a rich man (one of Jesus’ rich buddies) volunteered to lay the body of the bum in a tomb. Well Mary rolls along a few days later to dress the body and of course it isn’t there. Jesus himself came back and rolled away the stone, dragged the bum out into the country and buried him in an unmarked grave. Over the next few days he appeared to his disciples claiming to have risen from the dead, when in fact he sent another poor bastard in his place. Realizing they would eventually bust him for his ruse, Jesus took some of his money and fled to India with his rich buddies where he lived to a ripe old age.
…and now you know the rest of the story.
For centuries the Church has covered up this truth so they could control the people - all 1 Billion members of the Catholic Church.
Just when we thought we had a chance for reform, the Cardinals roll out and give us the shaft once again. Here we have a fundamentalist Nazi rolling around leading one of the most powerful organizations on Earth, and nobody seems to notice. Blind faith can be dangerous.
April 20th, 2005 at 10:20 pm
haha, I’m happy most of you can’t even argue more maturaly than a teenager. Ratzinger was only 17 when the War ended(highlight/underline). If you were that age and in the middle of all of this, how easy would it be to help someone? He tried to get out of it which he risked his life to do. Mr. Barnes, it’s interesting that you claim we stand for heresy. Look it up in a dictionary and get a clearer definition of it. Even if this man was lukewarm during his teenage years, it doesn’t mean that he didn’t change through all that time. I mean how old is he, 70? Read the works he’s made pver the years and decide whether he’s as bad as you think he is. I mean even The Jerusalem Post wasn’t against him.
April 20th, 2005 at 10:21 pm
I still say that if the Catholic church is the living embodiement of christianity then hell will be full of christians.These people all roll around wearing their jewels, fancy robes and the like claiming to be the spokesmen of God. God wouldn’t care if they went around butt naked without a penny to their name, yet these people profess to speak the Gospel when every day some kid is taken advantage of. No religious institution is perfect but the church needs to get the bad apples out of the organizatiion before everyone decides enough is enough and leaves the Church. I wouldn’t give the church another dime if it froze over in hell. For what? To settle another law suit? I still can’t believe the pope was a Nazi. I don’t care if he didn’t fire a shot. The HJ didn’t sit around and play scrabble and study German history. Those dudes were pretty hard core. Last I recall, Hitler was last photographed patting some little HJ kid on the cheek when the Russians were at the door step of his crib. Please. I didn’t fire a shot……..whatever! There was a truck load of blue smoke billowing forth from my home today because the church definately has me by the balls, and it has you all by the nads to. Whether you are wise enough to wake up and smell what they are shoveling, that is on you. I for one am content to walk outside every night and say a little prayer on my own than roll into the catholic church and donate money to that organization.
April 20th, 2005 at 10:33 pm
To must: As you can tell, I am just an angry old bastard tired of being led astray by other old bastards claiming that they know the Lord. This is simply my outlet to blog the Catholic religion from the comfort of my own home. I don’t pass myself off as educated or correct. In fact, I’m just a stupid old fart sitting here in my drawers watching my schlong get smaller by the minute.
So I will indulge: I didn’t fire a shot for Hitler either, and as a matter of fact, was only 17 when the war ended as well. If I’m still around for the next election, put my name in the hat for the job. However, I don’t have any experience with altar boys, so I’m afraid I may be disqualifed from the get-go. On the Jerusalem Post, knowing Benedict’s history, if I were a Jew, I’d support his ass too! In fact, I’d start sending money to the Vatican tomorrow.
April 20th, 2005 at 11:17 pm
Hmm. I don’t understand what makes anyone think that John Paul II, someone who had Nazi’s murder his own friends, had his own beloved country raped by them, would consider Ratzinger to be a “Nazi” and not give him his trust. John Paul II kept Ratzinger as the right hand man at his side to the very end. Ratzinger asked the pope if he could retire quietly in 91, 96, and 2001. The pope turned that request down each time. Ratzinger has never hid his history from anybody regarding his past. His family was very much opposed to the Nazi’s, especially his father. When the Americans came and liberated their hometown, the Ratzinger household welcomed them into their home to use their house as a headquarters.
I think it is very easy for anyone who never grew up in that country during that time to sanctimoniously say with all their 20/20 hindsight that they would have done things differently for sure. Right. Stop being a bunch of hypocrites and get off your damn high horse.
But I’m guessing that typing all this is a waste of time, because for some of you, there is no convincing and you are too blind to look at the hatred in your own hearts. As they say, the Catholic Church is the last socially acceptable target of prejudice.
April 21st, 2005 at 11:48 am
[quote]If Benedict can bring the terrorists and homosexuals to their knees, then I can certainly live with the fact that he had a hand in killing 6 million Jews. Who doesn’t enjoy a good execution?[/quote] Oy Vey! How can someone make a statement like that…………only an ignorant nudnick! Have people forgotten that Y’shua (Jesus) was Jewish? That John the Baptist wasn’t ‘Baptist’? That every Book of the Bible with the exception of Luke and Acts were written by G-d inspired Jews? (Luke was a proselyte who accepted Y’shua) The Bible still says that Jews are G-d’s Chosen People and G-d Himself says that He does not forget His Covenants! The Bible says concerning Jews : I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.” Genesis 12:3…………I think we saw what happened to the Nazi’s when they ‘cursed’ G-d’s People. Being a Messianic Jew I do see the election of ‘Ratzie’ as a huge step back to the time of Pope Pius. *sigh!* It’s my sincere hope that Benedict proves all of us wrong, and despite his debateable past he shows the Love of Christ in all he does, and forgets what he learned from Adolf!
April 21st, 2005 at 12:40 pm
Dear Susan Says,
How you have shown us all up for the shameless, Godless hypocrites that we surely are! I can only stand back in awe and marvel at the bathos-riddled moral indignation expressed in your sanctimonious pontifications. But if you’re after the top job, or any job behind a pulpit for that matter, you can forget about that. The Church has expressly forbidden the ordination of women. Working with lepers is, however, an acceptable alternative that could result in your eventual canonization if you are lucky enough. (For some reaon I doubt that you will find it an attractive option).
In spite of reservations accumulated in the course of reading your aspiring-martyr-cum-persecution-complex blog, I actually did as you requested: I looked into my heart to examine the hatred therein. Unfortunately I was stopped in my tracks by Pope Ratzinger, who reminded me that I had no right to perform such self-examination without the prior permission of the Church, and indeed, that as a Godless Jewish Arab Apostate Communist Heathen Atheist I should cease and desist from all lines of spiritual enquiry such as soul-searching, for the very good reason that I actually possessed no soul at all, and the only way to acquire one was within the guidelines clearly set down by Papal Encyclicals, beginning with conversion to the One True Faith. Otherwise, he said sternly, I would surely be condemned to Eternal Hellfire.
I then enquired of the good Cardinal-cum-Pope how such an eventuality would be possible, seeing as I had no soul to torment, what with being a Godless Protestant Heathen Terrorist Muslim Buddhist Jew and all. It appeared for a moment that the Apostle of St. Peter was about to get very, very angry with me- for a fraction of a second the beginnings of a look of blind, irrational fury crossed his face- but then, a profound and beatific calm spread across his wizened features, and expertly clicking his heels and raising his right arm in a stiff Teutonic salutation, he piously raised his eyes heavenward, smiled and said “Kiss my ring- I know nussing!”
Susan, I doubt you have read this far, because there are few who actually follow the Christian principle of tolerance in the conduct of their real, day-to-day lives. Most prefer to censure others with their empty words, and think it a moral deed of great worth, something to pat themselves on the back about. Pathetic. Words are just words, Susan Says, and deeds are deeds. They do not amount to the same thing; you may have noticed this odd discrepancy. Nevertheless, in the almost certainly vain hope that you actually are of sufficient moral calibre to have read thus far, I would commend to you the comments of Elizabeth Lohner above, which you obviously missed:
Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions [that Ratzinger had no choice in his wartime actions]. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”
I must remind you that Dachau, in case you weren’t aware, was a concentration camp. Not all concentration camps in Germany were just for Jews, but also for Germnas -especially true men of God such as Pastor Niemoller, who courageously and consistently spoke out against the Nazis- and paid for it with his life. To Pastor Niemoller, as with many people of true moral conviction, his principles were worth more than his life, and his conscience bade him resist the Nazis regardless of the consequences. He did the right thing without hesitation. Having said that, I agree that it’s easy enough to judge Ratzinger in hidsight; but simply put, Ratzinger was no hero- not even close. His actions come across as necessary to his continued survival, such as deserting in May 1945 (not may 1944-which incidentally answers a query posted above regarding what Ratzinger saw) in order to go home to his family- but do his actions constitute any kind of moral example? Don’t make me laugh. His actions are entirely understnadable, but not heroic an any sense of the word. Ratzinger’s father may have detested the Nazis; many Germans eventually did towards the end of the regime -and even more afterwards. but it seems (as with most Germans who survived the war) that these lofty sentiments did not translate into actions, or else I would have noticed something to this effect mentioned in one of the many, many Web pages and news articles I have read that deal with Ratzinger’s past.
Whatever high-faluting pontifications Ratzinger has penned since, they do not and cannot equal the true courage and sacrifice of people like Pastor Niemoller and Archbishop Romero of El Salvador- the latter a man who lived to help the poor, and who was murdered for his convictions. And to think, Romero was condemned by J.P. II and Ratzinger for attaching himself to Liberation Theology, a movement they describe as “communist” because its adherents believe in giving help to those in poverty, mostly because some dude called Jesus thought it would be a very good idea and a viable alternative to spending one’s hard-earned cash on clothes and jewellery, like they do in the Vatican and elsewhere. Whatever one might say about Liberation Theology, at least its adherents believed in directly assissting those in poverty, not scribbling extrapolated musings on what a trio of Portugese kids may or may not have seen in 1917 (the Fatima visions affair).
Susan Says, listen up: There are billions of poor, desperate people in dire need, and not just in the so-called ‘Third World’. Why not help them? They need your help far, far more than the Vatican does.
It seems nobody in the Church remembers the bit in the Bible about the camel and the eye of the needle. Perhaps they just didn’t pay attention to that bit, or thought it was some kind of joke, like the Thou shalt not kill rule, which so-called “Christians” tend to apply selctively as it suits them. All that gold the Cardinals were wearing at the Papal Conclave could have fed many a famine-wracked district in Central Africa for months, maybe years, assuming they were willing to give it away in the first place of course, and there are no signs of that happening anytime soon.
I would put it to you, Susan Says, that you are in fact the one who has made up their mind on this and many other subjects, and I very much doubt you have looked into your own heart in any meaningful way, since you are so content to cast the first stone.
Rather than condemning people for their (supposed) ignorance, and sticking up for powerful institutions and people that do not need your help, why not go and help an old lady across the road? Or better still, go visit a criminal in jail- or is that bit about forgiveness just for minor transgressions? Why jabber on so about what is right and wrong- do you assume that nobody can read? Isn’t that all set out pretty clearly in a certain book, one that it would behove you far better to peruse a little more closely?
As for that last remark about the Catholic Church being the last socially acceptable target of prejudice, would you care to repeat that remark to a Jewish survivor of the Holocaust, or an Orthodox Palestinian living in the Gaza Strip? Or why not tell that to an Arab or Muslim living in America today?
Are such people not worthy of your respect? If not, why not? Or did you think the injunction to love thy neighbour as thyself only applied if your neighbour happened to be a rich white “Christian” ? Grow up, Susan Says- physically, mentally, and spiritually.
April 21st, 2005 at 12:56 pm
I too would like to have all my forebodings about Ratzinger proved wrong. But I can’t help feeling that this is unlikely to happen…
As for the bit about the Covenant, well, maybe this is indeed so…just don’t make the all-too-common mistake of thinking that that agreement means somehow providing a special exemption from rules 1-10 as outlined on Mt Sinai.
You spoke of Ratzinger bringing the “terrorists and homosexuals to their knees”. Does this mean that Ratzinger will bring Ariel Sharon and Cardinal Lay to trial? Good, it’s about time we had some real justice in this world.
April 21st, 2005 at 1:03 pm
…And does this also mean that Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz will stand trial in the Hague someday? Bring on the justice!!!
Apologies, everyone. I did not mean to offend. I in no way meant to insinuate that the President of the United States was gay. I would never say that.
Though I do notice he’s beome good friends with Bill Clinton lately…don’t give him any cigars, George!
April 21st, 2005 at 1:07 pm
…Or was that comment about Pope Ratzinger “bringing terrorists and homosexuals to their knees” all about a perverse sexual act that is condemned by the Church and banned in several states? I never figured Ratzinger was like that. People are indeed full of surprises.
April 21st, 2005 at 1:13 pm
MAN!!! ruthless, intelligent, heartful, amazing! great work schweinhund
April 21st, 2005 at 5:26 pm
How could Ratzinger have been captured by the Americans in April of 1944? D-day wasn’t until June of 1944? Is it possible that Ratzinger didn’t desert until 1945 instead, when the war was all but over?
Can anyone shed any line on this apparent timeline inconsitency in Ratzinger’s story?
April 21st, 2005 at 5:34 pm
All of you who engage in this petty banter deserve pity. There were many good people who were caught up in terrible times. No one would ever defend the Third Reich, but not every German who lived between 1933 and 1945 was evil. It is also amusing that Jewish leaders from around the world have denounced your “Nazi-Pope” line of thinking as simply ridiculous. Well, it seems you are a group of self-absorbed narrow minded miscreants who simply need something to attack, all merit aside.
April 21st, 2005 at 5:48 pm
yes, all ratzinger did was ’schedule the trains and follow orders’ (to use a phrase from the banality of evil), while others died dissenting against the nazi regime. my two grandfathers were scarcely 18 and yet they both joined the U.S. military to fight against the Nazis. Tens of millions gave their lives in the struggle against Nazi facism, and yet the future Pope actively defended it. And now, merely because he was elected Pope, MCC is wants all free thought and discussion on the subject closed! Talk about your moral relativism!
April 21st, 2005 at 6:40 pm
[…] ope Worries
I’d like to formally slay the following comment left on my Nazi Pope Debate article. So many commenters have already left wonde […]
April 21st, 2005 at 7:40 pm
[quote]yes, all ratzinger did was ’schedule the trains and follow orders’ (to use a phrase from the banality of evil), while others died dissenting against the nazi regime. my two grandfathers were scarcely 18 and yet they both joined the U.S. military to fight against the Nazis. Tens of millions gave their lives in the struggle against Nazi facism, and yet the future Pope actively defended it. And now, merely because he was elected Pope, MCC is wants all free thought and discussion on the subject closed! Talk about your moral relativism![quote]
Were your grandfathers German by any chance? I’m glad they fought the war with America but it’s a whole different situation if your actually being controlled by the Nazis. Ratzi wasn’t a special force, he was being lukewarm as stated earlier but he was just young at the time. He went out of it and risked his life to do so. The Jerusalem Post (yeah this arguement is getting annoying but it’s effective) backs him up. Who makes the Jerusalem post? I guess that a popular Jewish magazine isn’t against him. You guys make it look like all jews hate him. I guess it’s just the liberal Catholics who hate him the most.
April 21st, 2005 at 8:45 pm
man, the guy’s being called “papa ratzi” now, even from his ostensible supporters (not just here, i’ve seen it on various bbs).
“ratzi” combines “rat” and “nazi.” you’d think a supporter would use something less loaded.
personally, i like ‘benny 16,’ ’cause it’s all gangster-sounding.
April 21st, 2005 at 10:43 pm
This has to be the most hateful blog of people I’ve ever encountered. Your anti-Catholic bigotry shines through your flimsy arguments. The Jewish people have supported this new Pope - you all don’t give a damn about the Jews, you’re just exploiting a historical fact to advance your idiotic hatred. I pray you all find something more loving to do with your time.
April 21st, 2005 at 11:33 pm
im glad we’ve officially won the “most hateful blog of 2005 award.” what a prestigious honor. id like to thank everybody who participated. its been quite a year, hasn’t it everybody!! whoo!!!
anyway, anthony. i dont think any of us is anti-catholic. what we are is virulently anti-moron. we are against people who uncritically accept and do as they are told. we are against people who surrender their personal autonomy and ability to make informed judgements.
and if that is synonymous than hatred, then i am the most hate-filled person in the world.
April 22nd, 2005 at 12:02 am
Many thanks for your information. Ratzinger’s election is just a catastrophe for the Roman catholic church. This man was totally educated in Nazi Germany : that’s what matters. I recommend an excellent book about Bavaria under the nazis (Ian Kershaw : Popular Opinion and Political Dissent in the Third Reich, Bavaria, 1933-1945); Kershaw shows how ambiguous the Bavarians were in front of nazi power and nazi crimes. Ratzinger lied about what he did in 1944 : we must investigate and ask for help from our German friends. I am sure Ratzinger’s authority won’t survive our investigation.
Pierre Albertini (Paris)
April 22nd, 2005 at 6:22 am
I was appalled when I began researching the history of the new pope and so I created this site
www.THEPOPEWASANAZI.COM
April 22nd, 2005 at 6:40 am
“we are against people who uncritically accept and do as they are told. we are against people who surrender their personal autonomy and ability to make informed judgements. and if that is synonymous than hatred, then i am the most hate-filled person in the world.”
So you define people who do this as morons, that you are anti-moron, implied that Catholics must be in this category, but that you are not anti-Catholic. Well, that sure is logical. So anyone who disagrees with you and happens to believe what the Catholic Church teaches *has* to not be thinking critically, or *must* be uninformed. So much for pluralism, and Thomas Aquinas must have been a automatonical dullard. I guess it’s ok for people to “surrender their personal autonomy” only if that means they agree with you. The only thing I hate is hypocrisy.
“This man was totally educated in Nazi Germany : that’s what matters.” So was my dad, my uncle, my aunts, I guess they are all Nazi’s, too? I think we can add guilt by association to the logical fallacies abounding here.
LMFAO, do any of you people have a local community college with an open enrollment Logic 100 class available to you?
April 22nd, 2005 at 7:59 am
I notice how you never replied to the second half of my comment….
“The Jewish people have supported this new Pope - you all don’t give a damn about the Jews, you’re just exploiting a historical fact to advance your idiotic hatred. I pray you all find something more loving to do with your time.”
Your real frustration is that the conclave elected a conservative…. one that will not reform a church that you aren’t even a part of… You don’t care about the facts… you care about infiltrating a 2000 year old institution- Jesus’s church…!
April 22nd, 2005 at 10:25 am
Bonna: the reason i didnt respond to that part of your argument is because i wrote an entire post on that already and i see no need at all to repeat myself.
Jason: I’m sure us all taking a logic class in a community college will clear this whole thing up. what a clever suggestion!
April 22nd, 2005 at 12:15 pm
Quite comical. All of you. Perhaps some semblence of research would aid in your aimless banter. Your opinions are sacred, however, as we all deserve our time to shine. Whether your time is found on MSNBC or this pithy blog site….have at!
April 22nd, 2005 at 12:51 pm
man, if a few of these comments had a little round ’self-righteous meter’ on top with a dial, the sucker’s be way in the red and steam would be whistling out of one of those looney-tunes-style steam whistles with a little pointy cap.
jason: “So you define people who do this as morons, that you are anti-moron, implied that Catholics must be in this category, but that you are not anti-Catholic.”
hm, maybe it’s just me, but i don’t see the implication that all ‘Catholics’ must be in this category. maybe a little venn diagram might do you some good, sir, since you are obviously keen on the lost discipline of “logic.”
http://www.snant.com/venn.gif
see? not *all* catholics are in this category, just the ones who show up on blogs and attempt to vilify people who *gasp* DARE to ask questions about the new pope’s past.
get it?
April 22nd, 2005 at 5:02 pm
that diagram’s fucking awesome. brilliant work as always.
April 22nd, 2005 at 6:51 pm
Hey Guys,
don´t be crazy!!! Ratzinger is no nazi, nearly no German is a nazi!! We live in another time and the third empire is gone! He has just been ONE day in the nazi´s youth, then he ran away! I think the debatte against J. Ratzinger is only created by the medias, who are now able to write against the bad, bad Germans! But they forget that the German “Life Style” has changed since 1945! Nearly no German wantes Hitler, they didn´t know what happened to the Jews!!!! There were many famiilies who took a Jew in their homes, and if the nazis knew that, the families dies the same way as the Jews! The German were also prisoners! Don´t compare the Germans with the Nazis!!! The German soldiers were also happy as the ware was over! But you were teached that all German were and are Nazis, you all don´t know the background!!!!!!!!!!!
April 22nd, 2005 at 9:28 pm
I’m glad the old fuck is dead.
If I have a chance, I’ll go piss on his grave.
Oh yeah, and it’s a damn good thing they’ve picked a Nazi for their next leader, it’s precisely what the church needs to run itself into the ground.
To those who are religious, send me your babies, I’ll eat them.
Mmmm… Babies.
April 22nd, 2005 at 10:07 pm
I don’t think some of you are getting my point. OF COURSE the Jews support the Nazi Pope. This M-F had a hand in killing 6 million of your anscestors. In fact, I wouldn’t do anything to piss him off. I would even start writing a monthly check to the Vatican to show your support, just so he knows that you’re on HIS side.
April 23rd, 2005 at 7:17 am
“And if he’s acceptable to Jewish opinion, then you cannot bring up such objections unless you yourself are Jewish.”
Jews are not the final arbiters of legal or moral issues related to the Holocaust, the Nazis, or genocide in general–they are human beings like everybody else, no worse but also no better.
I don’t know whether Ratzinger was a Nazi, but he certainly didn’t show much courage. And his extreme right wing views are hardly a repudiation of his past either.
The Catholic church made its choice, it has to live with the consequences now.
April 23rd, 2005 at 7:52 am
Ok, i think it’s time to throw in a german’s point of view. What all of you have been bragging on about is nothing but nonsense.
No offence, but does anyone here know how the 1930’s looked like in Germany? Obviously not. You are so full of yourself, quoting websites that were made up by people who have even less knowledge than you do. Hitlerjugend was not what you think. It was like boy scouts and only few people saw the ideologic background of it.
He was drafted into the militairy, so were 90% of the young men at that time. Propaganda and false media do a hell of a job when it comes to drafting, plus the fact that you were prosecuted if you refused to go. Just look at America nowadays. So many young men going to war to save their country, all based on propaganda, false media and faked ‘proof’.
Now take a look at yourself. Growing up in a society that conditions you to go to war, being a 17 year-old boy (remember he was 17 when the war ended!), none of you would stand up and fight the authorities. You obviously don’t know what happened to those who stood up. They got killed and the people they were helping got killed as well, only very few survived. A 17 year-old boy cannot decide what’s 100% right or wrong, being forced to join the army, he had no other chance.
So please re-consider your small-minded ignorance and listen to other than tabloid media. Look at polish or jewish media. Did they go on about Ratzinger being a nazi? No. They cheered for him. And if someone on earth still has the right to be angry at Germany, those countries would be right at the top.
It’s obvious that the UK and America still have a lot of prejudices against Germany and germans in general, encouraged by your media and small minded idiots that still don’t get that Hitler died 60 years ago, and the Nazi movement along with him. Look into your countries, you have more nazis than we do.
Ratzinger has been a great cardinal for many decades and was suggested by JPII (who was polish himself, he even experienced the second World War, unlike most of you, so he knew what he was going to do).
I doubt any of you have the right to judge Ratzinger about his past cause none of you have even the slightest clue what really happened during that time.
By reading the last post before mine, I have no clue why i am actually writing this. Those comments were obviously made by 15 year-old morons who think it’s cool to repeat a lie over and over again, pretending they know the only truth and the catholic church is wrong.
A brave new world we live in…
Lutz Ehlkes
Germany
April 23rd, 2005 at 10:16 am
OK
For years I have studied this type of history the Catholic church IS ths most despotic organization ever created by MAN, and certainly not by GOD
How many people died a horible death at the hands of the supposed hand of god ? way more than any modern war for sure or was it in the name of GOD !
Does any one remember about the Knights Templar the ancesestors of the MASONS and how the Cristians slaughtered them WHOLESALE for there gold,silver , property and for power you can order the VIEDO from the A&E channel or read a book.
What about all the Christain holy wars what was that all about ? Oh and you want to talk about atoricities ! I know they where just sperading the” WORD” in there own way RIGHT give me a break the eye of the needle for sure, what about the one line” one set of cloths for the priest if the beggar has none give him yousr if you have more than one if your a true man of GOD. somethingn like that any one know it yea for sure they will? I cant spell either so send me to hell too if I am not there alreadyl .
How about this idea this planet and living on it IS the real HELL once you rally get it your psoitive energy leaves and goes to the heavens and mixs with all the other positive souls that create the heavens in the first PLACE .
And if you should die before you really get it, you get recycled back to earth for another round of this HELL . Heaven on earth my back side, back to the garden is where we all whant to be and need to be! back to the ONE- NESS ?
JC
April 23rd, 2005 at 11:17 am
Having an infected finger all over the war, IS VERY SUSPICUS!
April 23rd, 2005 at 11:28 am
You all are pseudo-patriotic and anticatholic idiots! Shame on you. I hope the USA fall apart one day. Then I will piss on its grave. *Spit*
April 23rd, 2005 at 11:46 am
The real problem with this guy is not that he was a Nazi in 1944, it is that he still is a crazy bigot. Having our own jewel in the White House… I am going to reread Daniel’s and John’s books now, IS THE END NEAR?
April 23rd, 2005 at 12:34 pm
Ratzinger claims the he never took part in combat or fired a shot and that his gun was never loaded as the result of a badly infected finger.
Hmmmm … sounds a little like Clinton never inhaling … must be something genetic here.
Great site!
April 23rd, 2005 at 1:19 pm
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