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	<title>Comments on: Dion Fortune on Occultism</title>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: rhondda</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator>rhondda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 05:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-438</guid>
		<description>Thanks Tim.  Poor Mario with his cleft foot.   I did not realize this until now, but at university, I took medieval English studying chaucer.  He has a story called the Parliament of Fowls.  It is about an upperclass lady who has to chose her love from three suiters.  Each one represents a class of person and has a bird totem. It is quite politcal, but this gentleman Mario just fit one to a tee. I can't remember which one and he has inspired me to find out.   Sometimes the old is new again.  Sometimes the jerks trigger new paths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Tim.  Poor Mario with his cleft foot.   I did not realize this until now, but at university, I took medieval English studying chaucer.  He has a story called the Parliament of Fowls.  It is about an upperclass lady who has to chose her love from three suiters.  Each one represents a class of person and has a bird totem. It is quite politcal, but this gentleman Mario just fit one to a tee. I can&#8217;t remember which one and he has inspired me to find out.   Sometimes the old is new again.  Sometimes the jerks trigger new paths.</p>
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		<title>By: Occult Investigator</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-437</link>
		<dc:creator>Occult Investigator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-437</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;mario&lt;/strong&gt;: hm, looks like youve really turned the tables on us with your latest brilliant counter-argument

&lt;strong&gt;rhondda&lt;/strong&gt;: im actually kind of touched by what you wrote, and i can identify with it deeply. im sure youve done an excellent job with your sons. but then its the kind of thing that each person must learn or not on their own. i know for me it was (and/or continues to be) an enormously challenging and rewarding task to remove my projections from other people, be they anima or otherwise. i'm really glad to hear that some portion of that shines through in my work. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>mario</strong>: hm, looks like youve really turned the tables on us with your latest brilliant counter-argument</p>
<p><strong>rhondda</strong>: im actually kind of touched by what you wrote, and i can identify with it deeply. im sure youve done an excellent job with your sons. but then its the kind of thing that each person must learn or not on their own. i know for me it was (and/or continues to be) an enormously challenging and rewarding task to remove my projections from other people, be they anima or otherwise. i&#8217;m really glad to hear that some portion of that shines through in my work.</p>
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		<title>By: Debunkerâ€™s Debunker</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-436</link>
		<dc:creator>Debunkerâ€™s Debunker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-436</guid>
		<description>Occult Investigator Says: 
"you slide further and further away from actually bringing any substance to our discussion" =&#62;It is all there, April 25th, 2005 at 5:31 pm, Dr. Dee (or Mr. Kelly)!
OI says: "what the hell is with all your weird numbering systems? "=&#62; There was a legenda, and even jp seems to have understood. QQD1XV995, has it got any exoteric meaning? You know, OI, numberrs needn't be mystical.

rhondda Says: "You need a goat not a woman.However, I would hesitate with that as I really think animals need their own kind." =&#62; The logic is a bit shaky, but if you have any hopes, sorry to disappoint you, I am not the Beast with cleft foot.  

And now, goodnight guys. Lets move on. SATAN NEEDS SAVING

 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Occult Investigator Says:<br />
&#8220;you slide further and further away from actually bringing any substance to our discussion&#8221; =&gt;It is all there, April 25th, 2005 at 5:31 pm, Dr. Dee (or Mr. Kelly)!<br />
OI says: &#8220;what the hell is with all your weird numbering systems? &#8220;=&gt; There was a legenda, and even jp seems to have understood. QQD1XV995, has it got any exoteric meaning? You know, OI, numberrs needn&#8217;t be mystical.</p>
<p>rhondda Says: &#8220;You need a goat not a woman.However, I would hesitate with that as I really think animals need their own kind.&#8221; =&gt; The logic is a bit shaky, but if you have any hopes, sorry to disappoint you, I am not the Beast with cleft foot.  </p>
<p>And now, goodnight guys. Lets move on. SATAN NEEDS SAVING</p>
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		<title>By: rhondda</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-435</link>
		<dc:creator>rhondda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-435</guid>
		<description>Ah. Tim,  you are right on as usual.  There was a time that I did identify with the goddess, an archtype to be sure.  It was more earth mother than anything sexual.  However, when I realized it -- that I was identifiying with it, I realized I was not that and I was just human.  This is to me what alot of men see in a woman.  They project some kind of goddess on a women and just as men are not the gods, so women are not goddesses either. The hard part is when you withdraw the projection and the other person cannot handle it.  Women project the animus and men project the anima. To be sure. it enhances the experience, but when the honeymoon is over, we need to see each other as human.  Sometimes it is better if the god or goddess is imaginary rather than human.  Alot of hurt can be avoided.  However, when two people understand this the heart bcomes stronger.  Golly gee, I am a romantic at heart.  But our projections are a large part of our conditioning and what we believe, so it is a nesassary step to learn to grow.  To be hurt is part of it all. Aren't I profound.  Must be the beer.  However, having said all that, we still fall in love, and get disappointed knowing all this.  We grow in the expectation of not expecting our personal ideal, but desiring our personal reality. That is the real goddess/god.  Few realize it and I have not, so this is just  an opinion and a belief. We have got to open to love. You express that when you talk about looking out for the person and not  the belief that causes distress etc. So in my system, you have encoutered the goddess and made a decision as to how you are living.  That more men can do this is my profound wish.  I just hope I have been able to get my sons to see it.  I am very hopeful. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah. Tim,  you are right on as usual.  There was a time that I did identify with the goddess, an archtype to be sure.  It was more earth mother than anything sexual.  However, when I realized it &#8212; that I was identifiying with it, I realized I was not that and I was just human.  This is to me what alot of men see in a woman.  They project some kind of goddess on a women and just as men are not the gods, so women are not goddesses either. The hard part is when you withdraw the projection and the other person cannot handle it.  Women project the animus and men project the anima. To be sure. it enhances the experience, but when the honeymoon is over, we need to see each other as human.  Sometimes it is better if the god or goddess is imaginary rather than human.  Alot of hurt can be avoided.  However, when two people understand this the heart bcomes stronger.  Golly gee, I am a romantic at heart.  But our projections are a large part of our conditioning and what we believe, so it is a nesassary step to learn to grow.  To be hurt is part of it all. Aren&#8217;t I profound.  Must be the beer.  However, having said all that, we still fall in love, and get disappointed knowing all this.  We grow in the expectation of not expecting our personal ideal, but desiring our personal reality. That is the real goddess/god.  Few realize it and I have not, so this is just  an opinion and a belief. We have got to open to love. You express that when you talk about looking out for the person and not  the belief that causes distress etc. So in my system, you have encoutered the goddess and made a decision as to how you are living.  That more men can do this is my profound wish.  I just hope I have been able to get my sons to see it.  I am very hopeful.</p>
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		<title>By: Occult Investigator</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-434</link>
		<dc:creator>Occult Investigator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-434</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;rhondda&lt;/b&gt;: as to your original comments about him "needing a good woman to fuck him" i think you're actually making an excellent illustration of one of the &lt;a href="http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/the-conspiracy-theory-with-a-thousand-faces/" rel="nofollow"&gt;stages of the monomyth&lt;/a&gt; that i was describing yesterday, "encounter with the goddess":

&lt;blockquote&gt;Basically, it means that once weâ€™ve trained hard and gotten all geared up, weâ€™ve now got to soften the edge. Weâ€™ve got to encounter the goddess. Weâ€™ve got to embrace an ideology of love, or respect or goodness, or whatever you want to call it. Even if our skills are indomitable, without â€œloveâ€ we will become an unfeeling machine, we will become too convinced of our own abilities, arrogant.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>rhondda</b>: as to your original comments about him &#8220;needing a good woman to fuck him&#8221; i think you&#8217;re actually making an excellent illustration of one of the <a href="http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/the-conspiracy-theory-with-a-thousand-faces/" rel="nofollow">stages of the monomyth</a> that i was describing yesterday, &#8220;encounter with the goddess&#8221;:</p>
<blockquote><p>Basically, it means that once weâ€™ve trained hard and gotten all geared up, weâ€™ve now got to soften the edge. Weâ€™ve got to encounter the goddess. Weâ€™ve got to embrace an ideology of love, or respect or goodness, or whatever you want to call it. Even if our skills are indomitable, without â€œloveâ€ we will become an unfeeling machine, we will become too convinced of our own abilities, arrogant.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: rhondda</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-432</link>
		<dc:creator>rhondda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-432</guid>
		<description>Well Mario, I think JP is just fine.  I expected this from you.   Let's get down and dirty because you can't relate to a woman in any other way.   You need a goat not a woman.
 However, I would hesitate with that as I really think animals need their own kind. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Mario, I think JP is just fine.  I expected this from you.   Let&#8217;s get down and dirty because you can&#8217;t relate to a woman in any other way.   You need a goat not a woman.<br />
 However, I would hesitate with that as I really think animals need their own kind.</p>
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		<title>By: Occult Investigator</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-431</link>
		<dc:creator>Occult Investigator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-431</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;mario&lt;/strong&gt;, you really are quite the character, arent you? i've enjoyed your taunts and they've brought me some new ideas (intentionally or accidentally). but it seems like the only person you're effectively debunking is yourself. especially as you slide further and further away from actually bringing any substance to our discussion and more into games of name-calling and finger-pointing. 

those types of games are all well and good for blowing off steam and realizing what's what, i think. but there's more going on here than just that. if you'd like to be a part of it, i warmly invite you to stick around. 

PS. what the hell is with all your weird numbering systems? QQD1XV995? it doesn't make any sense. just say what you want to say</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>mario</strong>, you really are quite the character, arent you? i&#8217;ve enjoyed your taunts and they&#8217;ve brought me some new ideas (intentionally or accidentally). but it seems like the only person you&#8217;re effectively debunking is yourself. especially as you slide further and further away from actually bringing any substance to our discussion and more into games of name-calling and finger-pointing. </p>
<p>those types of games are all well and good for blowing off steam and realizing what&#8217;s what, i think. but there&#8217;s more going on here than just that. if you&#8217;d like to be a part of it, i warmly invite you to stick around. </p>
<p>PS. what the hell is with all your weird numbering systems? QQD1XV995? it doesn&#8217;t make any sense. just say what you want to say</p>
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		<title>By: rhondda</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-430</link>
		<dc:creator>rhondda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-430</guid>
		<description>Well thank you Jp.   I appreciate that.   Ususally when I express my gut feeling, I get shit.  I really like Tim's analysis of "stuff".   He is thoughtful, considerate and much more patient than me.  He makes me think which is more important  than any ideology and that is what is is all about.  Well that and where the heart is. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well thank you Jp.   I appreciate that.   Ususally when I express my gut feeling, I get shit.  I really like Tim&#8217;s analysis of &#8220;stuff&#8221;.   He is thoughtful, considerate and much more patient than me.  He makes me think which is more important  than any ideology and that is what is is all about.  Well that and where the heart is.</p>
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		<title>By: Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-429</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 01:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-429</guid>
		<description>rhondda Says: He needs a good woman to fuck him.... You are too nice sometimes Tim

Well, rhondda, you could be of asssistence there. Why don't you volonteer a good blow-job for jp. He seems only familiar with assholes and dickheads.   
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rhondda Says: He needs a good woman to fuck him&#8230;. You are too nice sometimes Tim</p>
<p>Well, rhondda, you could be of asssistence there. Why don&#8217;t you volonteer a good blow-job for jp. He seems only familiar with assholes and dickheads.</p>
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		<title>By: jp</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-427</link>
		<dc:creator>jp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 01:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-427</guid>
		<description>ha, i think rhondda's right on the mark with this one.  heh.  i like this one:

&#62;&#62; OIQ3: â€œWhat is it you want?â€
&#62;&#62; DDC3: What a funny, desperate question for Occult Investigator!

what a lame, arrogant response from the kind of intellectually itinerant asshole whose raison d'etre seems to be some kind of contrarian sophistry.  going back over his responses, they're actually devoid of any kind of content.  reminds me of the pseudo-zen dickheads i used to know in college who thought that by being contrary they were expressing some kind of enlightenment, when they were just being . . . well, dickheads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ha, i think rhondda&#8217;s right on the mark with this one.  heh.  i like this one:</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; OIQ3: â€œWhat is it you want?â€<br />
&gt;&gt; DDC3: What a funny, desperate question for Occult Investigator!</p>
<p>what a lame, arrogant response from the kind of intellectually itinerant asshole whose raison d&#8217;etre seems to be some kind of contrarian sophistry.  going back over his responses, they&#8217;re actually devoid of any kind of content.  reminds me of the pseudo-zen dickheads i used to know in college who thought that by being contrary they were expressing some kind of enlightenment, when they were just being . . . well, dickheads.</p>
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		<title>By: rhondda</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>rhondda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 01:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-426</guid>
		<description>Mario is lost.   He needs a good woman to fuck him.  Unfortunately, most women are repelled.  Oh, the sacrifice of sex to make a man feel manly.   I wonder why he is on this site too?  Remember the Mash movie where the nurse is encouraged to do her duty to help the poor doctor cope?  As one is apt to say Earth to Mario.  Get real. We are discussing religion and psychology, not your cogitive dissonance. You are too nice sometimes Tim, but that again is your way.  Thank whatever your purpose is. You are nicer than me.  This guy makes me want to vomit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mario is lost.   He needs a good woman to fuck him.  Unfortunately, most women are repelled.  Oh, the sacrifice of sex to make a man feel manly.   I wonder why he is on this site too?  Remember the Mash movie where the nurse is encouraged to do her duty to help the poor doctor cope?  As one is apt to say Earth to Mario.  Get real. We are discussing religion and psychology, not your cogitive dissonance. You are too nice sometimes Tim, but that again is your way.  Thank whatever your purpose is. You are nicer than me.  This guy makes me want to vomit.</p>
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		<title>By: Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-424</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-424</guid>
		<description>Arizona Says:
re mario: the answer to â€œWhat is it you want?â€ is pretty apparent: he wants to learn how itâ€™s done (how to acquire sheepish acolytes, that is) 

Very witty, Arizona, you are obviously not of them (sheepish acolytes, I mean)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arizona Says:<br />
re mario: the answer to â€œWhat is it you want?â€ is pretty apparent: he wants to learn how itâ€™s done (how to acquire sheepish acolytes, that is) </p>
<p>Very witty, Arizona, you are obviously not of them (sheepish acolytes, I mean)</p>
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		<title>By: albion</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>albion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-419</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;i wonder if theres any writings on the surrealists and the ritual magick of the early 20th century?&lt;/i&gt;

Well, you might want to check out Georges Bataille. He was an early surrealist who later became known as the "theoretician of eroticism" and the "philosopher of evil". Very dense, idiosyncratic, literary "frenchified" style. He analyzed religion from a perspective of absolute or "base" materialism. He definitely had that creepy Nietzchean will-to-power thing going on:

"French essayist, philosophical theorist, novelist, often called the "metaphysician of evil." Bataille was interested in sex, death, degradation, and the power and potentialities of obscene. He rejected traditional literature and considered that the ultimate aim of all intellectual, artistic, or religious activity should be the annihilation of the rational individual in a violent, transcendental act of communion."

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bataille.htm

It's often left out of art books that surrealism began as an early, ill-fated attempt to unite aesthetics with politics and harness the powers of the unconscious in the service of revolutionary social change. Louis Aragon spearheaded the attempt to integrate surrealism with communism. He eventually went to Moscow, broke with the surrealists, renounced his early phantasmagorial "modern mythic" anti-novels, and devoted his efforts to writing doctrinally pure social-realist novels. Rene Daumal, another early surrealist, ended up hanging out with Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, and eventually went to India.  As for Bataille, well let's just say he was plenty weird. I don't know that you'll find a way forward in looking back at the surrealists, but there's definitely some lessons and cautionary tales there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>i wonder if theres any writings on the surrealists and the ritual magick of the early 20th century?</i></p>
<p>Well, you might want to check out Georges Bataille. He was an early surrealist who later became known as the &#8220;theoretician of eroticism&#8221; and the &#8220;philosopher of evil&#8221;. Very dense, idiosyncratic, literary &#8220;frenchified&#8221; style. He analyzed religion from a perspective of absolute or &#8220;base&#8221; materialism. He definitely had that creepy Nietzchean will-to-power thing going on:</p>
<p>&#8220;French essayist, philosophical theorist, novelist, often called the &#8220;metaphysician of evil.&#8221; Bataille was interested in sex, death, degradation, and the power and potentialities of obscene. He rejected traditional literature and considered that the ultimate aim of all intellectual, artistic, or religious activity should be the annihilation of the rational individual in a violent, transcendental act of communion.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bataille.htm" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bataille.htm'>http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bataille.htm</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s often left out of art books that surrealism began as an early, ill-fated attempt to unite aesthetics with politics and harness the powers of the unconscious in the service of revolutionary social change. Louis Aragon spearheaded the attempt to integrate surrealism with communism. He eventually went to Moscow, broke with the surrealists, renounced his early phantasmagorial &#8220;modern mythic&#8221; anti-novels, and devoted his efforts to writing doctrinally pure social-realist novels. Rene Daumal, another early surrealist, ended up hanging out with Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, and eventually went to India.  As for Bataille, well let&#8217;s just say he was plenty weird. I don&#8217;t know that you&#8217;ll find a way forward in looking back at the surrealists, but there&#8217;s definitely some lessons and cautionary tales there.</p>
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		<title>By: Arizona</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-418</link>
		<dc:creator>Arizona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-418</guid>
		<description>re mario: the answer to â€œWhat is it you want?â€ is pretty apparent: he wants to learn how it's done (how to acquire sheepish acolytes, that is)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re mario: the answer to â€œWhat is it you want?â€ is pretty apparent: he wants to learn how it&#8217;s done (how to acquire sheepish acolytes, that is)</p>
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		<title>By: Arizona</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-417</link>
		<dc:creator>Arizona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-417</guid>
		<description>Getting back to Dion Fortune, there is a chapter on her in Maggy Anthony's book "Valkyries : The Women Around Jung". Might be worth tracking this down.

I've read one of her novels "The Goat-Foot God" and found it interesting but not rivetting. There is a decent article on her at sacred-texts.com:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos474.htm
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Getting back to Dion Fortune, there is a chapter on her in Maggy Anthony&#8217;s book &#8220;Valkyries : The Women Around Jung&#8221;. Might be worth tracking this down.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read one of her novels &#8220;The Goat-Foot God&#8221; and found it interesting but not rivetting. There is a decent article on her at sacred-texts.com:<br />
<a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos474.htm" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos474.htm'>http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos474.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-416</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-416</guid>
		<description>Occult Investigator : I notice you have hurrried on to "Saving Satan". Well the situation must really be like "House on Fire" RED ALERT. See you there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Occult Investigator : I notice you have hurrried on to &#8220;Saving Satan&#8221;. Well the situation must really be like &#8220;House on Fire&#8221; RED ALERT. See you there.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-415</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-415</guid>
		<description>Occult Investigator Says:  "if you want me to start making fun of you, say the word, and iâ€™ll go for it, my friend" 
Debunkerâ€™s Debunker Says: any time, my dear! 

You did not seriously think that all visitors of your site were sheepish acolytes of Occult Investigator, did you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Occult Investigator Says:  &#8220;if you want me to start making fun of you, say the word, and iâ€™ll go for it, my friend&#8221;<br />
Debunkerâ€™s Debunker Says: any time, my dear! </p>
<p>You did not seriously think that all visitors of your site were sheepish acolytes of Occult Investigator, did you?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Occult Investigator</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-413</link>
		<dc:creator>Occult Investigator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-413</guid>
		<description>so now you're just going to be mean? i thought we were having a discussion like civilized people. if you want me to start making fun of you, say the word, and i'll go for it, my friend. remember that you're the one who came to me, and began asking me questions and judging me. ive only ever tried to be helpful with you and explain my side of things</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so now you&#8217;re just going to be mean? i thought we were having a discussion like civilized people. if you want me to start making fun of you, say the word, and i&#8217;ll go for it, my friend. remember that you&#8217;re the one who came to me, and began asking me questions and judging me. ive only ever tried to be helpful with you and explain my side of things</p>
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		<title>By: Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-412</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario (Debunkerâ€™s Debunker)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-412</guid>
		<description>OIQ1: you too are now â€œindulging in books of â€˜Ritual Magicâ€™â€ 
DDC1: no, I am not, you have let all and sundry know Occult Investigator is, and takes them in earnest too!

OIQ2: "why youâ€™re even on my site at all" "challenge yourself to step outside ... yourself"
DDC2: the two together are not separate enough in the text to disguise a freudian slip, a barely hidden wish  

OIQ3: â€œWhat is it you want?â€ 
DDC3: What a funny, desperate question for Occult Investigator!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OIQ1: you too are now â€œindulging in books of â€˜Ritual Magicâ€™â€<br />
DDC1: no, I am not, you have let all and sundry know Occult Investigator is, and takes them in earnest too!</p>
<p>OIQ2: &#8220;why youâ€™re even on my site at all&#8221; &#8220;challenge yourself to step outside &#8230; yourself&#8221;<br />
DDC2: the two together are not separate enough in the text to disguise a freudian slip, a barely hidden wish  </p>
<p>OIQ3: â€œWhat is it you want?â€<br />
DDC3: What a funny, desperate question for Occult Investigator!</p>
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		<title>By: Occult Investigator</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-410</link>
		<dc:creator>Occult Investigator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-410</guid>
		<description>well mario, we've reached the point where i feel inclined to ask you why you're even on my site at all, let alone studying it so fervently. you too are now "indulging in books of 'Ritual Magic'" - whether or not you're trying to "debunk" them, you are allowing their influence to permeate your mind. 

i personally think this is an excellent thing to do, to challenge yourself to step outside yourself like this. but i do feel inclined, like the hermetic angel of the threshold to ask you:

â€œWhat is it you want?â€</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well mario, we&#8217;ve reached the point where i feel inclined to ask you why you&#8217;re even on my site at all, let alone studying it so fervently. you too are now &#8220;indulging in books of &#8216;Ritual Magic&#8217;&#8221; - whether or not you&#8217;re trying to &#8220;debunk&#8221; them, you are allowing their influence to permeate your mind. </p>
<p>i personally think this is an excellent thing to do, to challenge yourself to step outside yourself like this. but i do feel inclined, like the hermetic angel of the threshold to ask you:</p>
<p>â€œWhat is it you want?â€</p>
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		<title>By: Mario (Italy)</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario (Italy)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-409</guid>
		<description>OIQ1:"then you tell satan that your only wish is that he be redeemed. is that a bad thing?" 
DDC1: No, it isn't, but the why bother evoking him at all?

OIQ2:"you will be the one casting him there with your own fear - which is the only way he gains power, in my opinion"
DDC2: Thank goodness you are wise enough to call it an "opinion". My opinion is, is you start (step 1) thinking of "clearing out the weeds" (sounds familiar?) of obscurantism (no Angels, no Devils); then the world seems pretty empty and barren, so (step 2) you start invoking Angels (if you are a Doctor John Dee, whose brain got soft from too much studying) or evoking them (if you are a rascal like Dee's helper Edward Kelley); then (step 3) angel do despond, only trouble is the sort of angel who respond to this sort of "Angelic Hermeticism" are the scrapped ones; and then (step 4) you start finding yourself in real trouble.   

My dear OI, there is no point being a "Joseph Campbell Prize" winner, if in the end you find yourself indulging in books of "Ritual Magic" (or magick, if you want to give it a dash of Aleister Crowley)  

Legenda

OI: 	Occult Investigator (Tim Boucher)
DD:	Debunkerâ€™s Debunker (Mario Stratta) 
Qn:	Quotation from OI
Cn:	Comment from DD
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OIQ1:&#8221;then you tell satan that your only wish is that he be redeemed. is that a bad thing?&#8221;<br />
DDC1: No, it isn&#8217;t, but the why bother evoking him at all?</p>
<p>OIQ2:&#8221;you will be the one casting him there with your own fear - which is the only way he gains power, in my opinion&#8221;<br />
DDC2: Thank goodness you are wise enough to call it an &#8220;opinion&#8221;. My opinion is, is you start (step 1) thinking of &#8220;clearing out the weeds&#8221; (sounds familiar?) of obscurantism (no Angels, no Devils); then the world seems pretty empty and barren, so (step 2) you start invoking Angels (if you are a Doctor John Dee, whose brain got soft from too much studying) or evoking them (if you are a rascal like Dee&#8217;s helper Edward Kelley); then (step 3) angel do despond, only trouble is the sort of angel who respond to this sort of &#8220;Angelic Hermeticism&#8221; are the scrapped ones; and then (step 4) you start finding yourself in real trouble.   </p>
<p>My dear OI, there is no point being a &#8220;Joseph Campbell Prize&#8221; winner, if in the end you find yourself indulging in books of &#8220;Ritual Magic&#8221; (or magick, if you want to give it a dash of Aleister Crowley)  </p>
<p>Legenda</p>
<p>OI: 	Occult Investigator (Tim Boucher)<br />
DD:	Debunkerâ€™s Debunker (Mario Stratta)<br />
Qn:	Quotation from OI<br />
Cn:	Comment from DD</p>
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		<title>By: Occult Investigator</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-408</link>
		<dc:creator>Occult Investigator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-408</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;mario:&lt;/strong&gt; its also essentially the same story as the genie in the lamp. the genie comes out and asks you to fulfill your wishes. but then the wishes that you ask for always wreak destruction on you. and the moral of that story is almost always that youre supposed to wish the genie his freedom. 

i think thats precisely what fortune is saying about. and i think it agrees with your faust reference. in your language, you could maybe recast this as: satan comes to you saying he will fulfill your wishes. then you tell satan that your only wish is that he be redeemed. is that a bad thing?

further, i think if you go around looking to fit satan into everything, and trace his unseen presence in all outlines, then you WILL find him there, because you will be the one casting him there with your own fear - which is the only way he gains power, in my opinion</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>mario:</strong> its also essentially the same story as the genie in the lamp. the genie comes out and asks you to fulfill your wishes. but then the wishes that you ask for always wreak destruction on you. and the moral of that story is almost always that youre supposed to wish the genie his freedom. </p>
<p>i think thats precisely what fortune is saying about. and i think it agrees with your faust reference. in your language, you could maybe recast this as: satan comes to you saying he will fulfill your wishes. then you tell satan that your only wish is that he be redeemed. is that a bad thing?</p>
<p>further, i think if you go around looking to fit satan into everything, and trace his unseen presence in all outlines, then you WILL find him there, because you will be the one casting him there with your own fear - which is the only way he gains power, in my opinion</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-407</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-407</guid>
		<description>Franz Bardon's system of magical development (Initiation Into Hermetics is the first volume) stresses the need to know and develop self-knowledge and balance before you can truly advance along the path.  I find it a very mature approach, in sharp contrast with more power-greedy types.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Franz Bardon&#8217;s system of magical development (Initiation Into Hermetics is the first volume) stresses the need to know and develop self-knowledge and balance before you can truly advance along the path.  I find it a very mature approach, in sharp contrast with more power-greedy types.</p>
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		<title>By: Mario (Italy)</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-406</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario (Italy)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-406</guid>
		<description>Angel of the Threshold (according to Dion Fortune)
"When he comes to the gate of higher consciousness, however, he will be met by the Angel of the Threshold who will ask him the age-old question that he must answer before he can pass on, and the answer to this question is not any Shibboleth that admits to a secret society, but the very reasonable query to be addressed to the stranger who knocks at any door, "What is it you want?" and the answer to that question will depend, not on the knowledge, but on the character of the applicant. If rightly answered, the way will be made plain for his advancement; if wrongly answered, he will be left to find his way back to the Earth plane as best he may, and that is neither a very pleasant nor a very safe experience".

Come on folks, don't you recognise the lore? This is Mephistopheles who is asking Dr. Faustus (according to Christopher Marlowe) or Dr. Faust (according to J. W. von Goethe), who asks his pupil what is he wants. No, it is not Knowledge, Illumination, you name it . It is, as usual Gold and Guns and Girls!

Wake up! 

"And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light." 
(2 Corinthians 11:14)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Angel of the Threshold (according to Dion Fortune)<br />
&#8220;When he comes to the gate of higher consciousness, however, he will be met by the Angel of the Threshold who will ask him the age-old question that he must answer before he can pass on, and the answer to this question is not any Shibboleth that admits to a secret society, but the very reasonable query to be addressed to the stranger who knocks at any door, &#8220;What is it you want?&#8221; and the answer to that question will depend, not on the knowledge, but on the character of the applicant. If rightly answered, the way will be made plain for his advancement; if wrongly answered, he will be left to find his way back to the Earth plane as best he may, and that is neither a very pleasant nor a very safe experience&#8221;.</p>
<p>Come on folks, don&#8217;t you recognise the lore? This is Mephistopheles who is asking Dr. Faustus (according to Christopher Marlowe) or Dr. Faust (according to J. W. von Goethe), who asks his pupil what is he wants. No, it is not Knowledge, Illumination, you name it . It is, as usual Gold and Guns and Girls!</p>
<p>Wake up! </p>
<p>&#8220;And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.&#8221;<br />
(2 Corinthians 11:14)</p>
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		<title>By: J. Puma</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-405</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Puma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-405</guid>
		<description>fortune wrote what is one of the absolute best books on the qabalah ever written, by my estimation.  it's called (strangely enough) 'the mystical qabalah.'  i always recommend it to people interested in the philosophical basis of the qabalah-- it teaches the spheres and their correspondences with amazing clarity.  read it!  yeah!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fortune wrote what is one of the absolute best books on the qabalah ever written, by my estimation.  it&#8217;s called (strangely enough) &#8216;the mystical qabalah.&#8217;  i always recommend it to people interested in the philosophical basis of the qabalah&#8211; it teaches the spheres and their correspondences with amazing clarity.  read it!  yeah!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-404</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-404</guid>
		<description>Coincidence or not, Tim, but I quoted Dion Fortune today as well. All I have of hers is Psychic Self-Defense, which I highly recommend.

As I was reading her last night, I dug out my Charles Williams novels. He strikes me as being in her tradition, as well as of her time. If you haven't read him, you might want to. The weakest book, I think, is Shadows of Ecstasy, but any of the other six would make a good beginning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coincidence or not, Tim, but I quoted Dion Fortune today as well. All I have of hers is Psychic Self-Defense, which I highly recommend.</p>
<p>As I was reading her last night, I dug out my Charles Williams novels. He strikes me as being in her tradition, as well as of her time. If you haven&#8217;t read him, you might want to. The weakest book, I think, is Shadows of Ecstasy, but any of the other six would make a good beginning.</p>
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		<title>By: Occult Investigator</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-402</link>
		<dc:creator>Occult Investigator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-402</guid>
		<description>hm i hadnt thought of that. thats a good connection to explore in more detail. i wonder if theres any writings on the surrealists and the ritual magick of the early 20th century?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hm i hadnt thought of that. thats a good connection to explore in more detail. i wonder if theres any writings on the surrealists and the ritual magick of the early 20th century?</p>
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		<title>By: albion</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/comment-page-1/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator>albion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/04/25/dion-fortune-on-occultism/#comment-400</guid>
		<description>If that was writtein in 1925, I imagine that mention of "love of the marvelous" was a direct dig at the surrealists and their parlor-occultism. "The Marvelous" was a surrealist watchword.

&lt;i&gt;"Let us not mince words.. the marvelous is always beautiful, anything marvelous is beautiful, in fact only the marvelous is beautiful."&lt;/i&gt; - Andre Breton

In general the surrealists were all about "unleashing" the unconscious. But even among the surrealists, there were materialists (Georges Bataille, Louis Aragon) and spiritualists (Rene Daumal).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If that was writtein in 1925, I imagine that mention of &#8220;love of the marvelous&#8221; was a direct dig at the surrealists and their parlor-occultism. &#8220;The Marvelous&#8221; was a surrealist watchword.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Let us not mince words.. the marvelous is always beautiful, anything marvelous is beautiful, in fact only the marvelous is beautiful.&#8221;</i> - Andre Breton</p>
<p>In general the surrealists were all about &#8220;unleashing&#8221; the unconscious. But even among the surrealists, there were materialists (Georges Bataille, Louis Aragon) and spiritualists (Rene Daumal).</p>
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