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Pagan Pussies
Sorry, I didn’t mean to mislead you with that title. This isn’t going to be some kind of thing about Wiccan porno. Instead I wanted to talk about a hilariously lame article that Jennifer Emick highlighted: Pagans struggle with religous stereotypes. The article tries to be this even-handed description of “modern day pagans trying to peaceably practice their faith in a culture that doesn’t understand them.”
I have absolutely zero tolerance for this whiny pathetic approach to religion. Nobody understand you? What the fuck do I care? Make me understand you, bitches! And second of all, have there be something to actually understand. Being a “kitchen witch” or wearing a pentagram necklace doesn’t make you some kind of deep fucking philosopher who none of us muggles could ever possibly plumb the depths of. It just means you bought into a cheesy stereotyped watered-down Barnes & Noble version of religion.
No offense to anybody who’s into this stuff, because it can be a useful gateway, like anything else. But this type of weak-willed fishy “adherence” to your beliefs drives me totally insane. Check this out:
“People don’t know it is a religion and say negative things, but I don’t hide it. I wear my pentacle all the time,” said Ahrens. “We are making progress.
Wow! What amazing progress! You bought a necklace! Now you suddenly have a religion! It’s as simple as that! Congratulations! And it’s so very brave of you “not to hide” your religion like that. What a bold revolutionary statement! I’m surprised they don’t lock you up in Guantanamo Bay!
They also talk about what it would require to change the stereotypes of pagans in culture:
“It would take more pagans to become news reporters and to be in office,” she said. “If Ted Turner decided to say he was a pagan, that would be great. Someone has to be giving positive viewpoints and seeing more positive images, and we have to be talented, educated, and well spoken when we are out there.”
Oh good, as long as you’re relying on reporters and politicians, I’m sure you’ll be fine. As long as someone is giving positive viewpoints to the world, you don’t have to, right? You can sit at home and thumb through your Eclectic Witch Cookbook while other people do all your work for you.
And furthermore, this really inflames me. First they say:
They are also tired of being called “goths” or “devil worshippers” and say too many people believe a pagan is the equivalent of a rebellious teenager.
And then they say:
“Many of us were raised in a Christian church and they can throw all these things at you about going to hell, or they will listen to you and leave you alone. We prefer to not deal with the negativity.”
So you don’t want to be seen as rebellious, but you are rebelling against something (namely, Christianity, and dominant mythos). OH THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!
Secondly, this whole thing about not wanting to deal with negativity is fucking stupid. Elsewhere in the article one of them says:
“There should be no anger in your heart. Strive for perfect love and perfect trust in that sacred space.”
So in other words, you should basically throw out completely at least half of human experience and feeling - just cause it makes you uncomfortable. Hm, that seems like a great idea. I’m not saying you need to run around and sacrifice babies on the altar of Satan. But I am saying that this one-sided spirituality will always leave you weak in the knees. In fact, it will make you fearful and timid when other people challenge your beliefs or lifestyle. You’ve shut off your ability to realistically deal with negativity in yourself, and consequently, you now cower in coffeeshop covens and worry about mysterious “persecution.” No wonder! (PS. Of course I recognize pagans aren’t the only group who try to ignore the problem of anger and evil)
I know this is going to piss a lot of people off, but these people need to go out and grow a pair of balls. Christians may not always be the greatest, but in some fucked up way, I can sort of admire that they were man enough to burn their enemies at the stake instead of running scared, and complaining about them behind their backs.
June 16th, 2005 at 2:47 pm
i agree 100%.
most people who claim to be ‘pagan’ don’t even know what they mean when they use the word!
June 16th, 2005 at 2:55 pm
I got into it with a Satanist/pagan once (my high school was overrun with them) because I told them they were a “lazy Christian”: they wanted all the trappings of religion but didn’t want to do any of the stuff required… like going to church or giving 10% of their income as tithe… i respect true pagans who are into it but a lot of times pagans turn out to be people who basically want to belong to a church that lets them sin.
I tell them to become Episcopalians but it never works…
June 16th, 2005 at 2:58 pm
thats hilarious james. i was actually planning to write something related to the episcopalians and unitarians - more along the lines of gnosticism, but i’ll get back to that. anyway, it seems like a good deal of pagans actually do belong to unitarian churches.
http://www.mlive.com/news/sanews/index...sf?/base/news-15/1118672400303580.xml
June 16th, 2005 at 2:59 pm
oop, slippery fingers cut me off. i was gonna continue: what does your average ‘pagan’-type even mean when using the word ‘pagan’? all that really means is ‘non-abrahamic religion.’ they could be hindu, for all i know.
it’s that whole damnable desire for persecution again. most (*MOST BUT NOT ALL*) ‘pagans’ i’ve known who are concerned about this sense of persecution are just looking for some revenge after having been picked on. they *like* feeling persecuted, ’cause it draws more attention to them. like how most wiccans i’ve known overcompensate for bad experiences with xianity by becoming extremely hostile to xians.
these people are no more ‘persecuted’ than modern fundamentalist christians who claim that they’re ‘persecuted’ ’cause they can’t pray in school. you want persecution? talk to the iraqi mandeans who are being KILLED for their beliefs, or even american muslims, like a friend of mine who was afraid to ride the bus while dressed in hijab because of the abuse she’d taken for it.
it’s like that whole thing about the statue of samantha the witch in salem, mass. being so offensive to modern witches. gimmee a fuckin’ break! i’ll concede that it’s silly, but is your faith in your ‘path’ so tenuous that a statue of a tv witch is gonna threaten it? it’s just silly is all it is, it doesn’t threaten wicca.
the ‘burning times’ are loooong over, folks, and i’m speaking from a tradition that experienced them, too. time to grow the hell up.
whiny bitches. come see me when your feet start to smoke, and we’ll talk.
June 16th, 2005 at 3:04 pm
You make an excellent point in that some people who only focus on “positivity” frequently become unable to deal with the harsh edges of the world, be they “pagans”, new-ager’s, pseudo-buddhists, or a lot of kids the victim of the “self-esteem” society. But at the same time there’s a fine distinction between ignoring the negative aspects, the shadow, and recognizing the negative and choosing to emphasize the postive…
June 16th, 2005 at 3:11 pm
people take on religion for many reasons.if you insist on taking on religion as a form of identity they you will feel all criticism of your chosen doctrine/fashion is ad hominem.
June 16th, 2005 at 3:49 pm
Man you are starting to sound like me with all the wrath getting thrown around. I like the vinegar it reconfirms you aren’t a pussy. Not that I thought you were a pussy - but you know - sometimes a man has to be umm redefined. Did you ever go interview anyone?
June 16th, 2005 at 5:14 pm
an interesting interview is art bell kissing father malachai martin`s ass.i found it on kazaa.the father was an exorsist.talk about goth! apparently blatty wrote the exorsist based on the fathers work.who knows.another hollywood/religion connection.
June 16th, 2005 at 5:28 pm
this just in.a statue of samantha stevens,of “bewitched” fame was unvieled today in……are you ready for this…..salem,mass.does not ones heart burst with joy at the abundance of god`s creation?
(i would have posted a link to the news article on yahoo but i don`t know how.)
June 16th, 2005 at 5:52 pm
“A useful gateway, like anything else”. What exactly does that mean? That all paths are true? And gateway to what?
June 16th, 2005 at 5:57 pm
it means that anybody can do what works for them to get where they are going. but that doesnt mean they are above criticism, or that they couldnt do what they’re doing better
June 16th, 2005 at 6:09 pm
Alot of people say silly things when they are beginning to question what they have been brought up with, especially if it has been hard core dogma and your very psychic survival depends upon going along with it. A child cannot say no to parents who withdraw support if the child try to disagree with them. Then at some age usually in the teen time, you say fuck them. That is a beginning. Going all new age or positive is also a step on the path. It is part of becoming an individual. The thing is one cannot stay there. It is like belonging to a support group that is full of victims. They reinforce each other and unless you eventually leave the group, you are stuck being a victim because that is where your support is. However, I totally agree that pagans can be quite “flaky” and perhaps mocking them is one way to get them to think, but it also can be a way to entrench them deeper into it by reinforcing their former victimization.
The idea of that statue is really an insult to any pagan and a PR stunt. It will separate the true pagans and those who are out to exploit the idea. Also, I want to add that sometimes, it is really necessary to have been a flake because that is the only way you can really judge what a flake is and can be of help to those who are seeking, but cannot discern the difference between fake and real. Afterall, we all want to help each other avoid becoming a victim of a cult, do we not?
June 16th, 2005 at 7:31 pm
or maybe start our own.erk……
well said though,rhondda.we have to go through being a geek before we can be the next thing.i am embarrassed,for moments,when my nine year old is striving to be older and gets it wrong.then i realise that my embarrassment is that he`s trying to be me and i then i realise that i love him and his brother so much.
i challenged my father`s catholicism at around five or six.i was doomed from that point on.i learned debate at an early age and found the high school version a walk in comparison.we don`t set out to break our parents when we are born,but sometimes thier dumbass theology leaves no choice,unless we are to be a spiritual victim all our lives.
June 16th, 2005 at 7:34 pm
Wicca is a fraud:
- there was no primitive matriarchy
- there were no burning times (try HANGING TIMES)
- no indigenous peoples worshipped a “LOrd” and “Lady” (every polytheistic culture has its own gods, not abstract male and female one-size-fits-all-culture-gods)
- there claim that witches don’t work with the Devil is false - WHITE AMERICAN COLLEGE STUDENT WITCHES don’t work with the devil, but many AFro-Carribean traditions do
- their claim that witches don’t sacrifice animals is similarly false - WHITE AMERICAN COLLEGE STUDENT WITCHES don’t sacrifice animals, but many AFro-Carribean traditions do
- they say they don’t hex or curse people. WHY NOT? Is it because they DON’T KNOW HOW?!?!?!
Lies, lies, LIES!!!!
Nietzsche would have a field day with these morons, they exhibit what he calle dthe slave morality, they are weak and wear it as a badge of honor, incompetent and untalented and that becomes a virtue too.
Oh yeah, the “law of three” - WHAT PRIMITIVE WITCHCRAFT TRADITION has a “law of three”? The Voudonists? the Siberian shamen? How about the Tibetans?
Nope, Gerald Gardner introduced this nonsense via Besant and Blavatsky, he wanted a bowdlerized “safe” version of Crowley’s Thelema as a way to get chicks naked, that’s it.
Wicca is hollow, empty, meaningless with no challenge, no real danger, no real learning, a made-up history, a gun with no bullets, shall I go on?
Why aren’t their any black witches, BTW? ANyone ever notice that? It’s not even a form of sorcery, its just an identity game for middle-class white kids. You think people in Zimbabwe or ANgola go around bragging about being witches? Nope cause the REAL witches HIDE so their neighbors don’t string’em up.
Satanism and Goth are also idiotic and hollow subcultures that have zero to do with spirituality or sorcery of any type but that’s another topic.
June 16th, 2005 at 9:19 pm
there were no burning times **
Not to mention those who were burned wern’t Wiccans (or even “special healing women” or any of that rot). The were scapegoats who were murdered by superstition. I hate the jackasses who go around with “never again” plastered all over, who have bought into this romance of the burned witch (who by now is the ‘ancestor’ of every Wiccan, it seems) but doesn’t give two shits for the hundreds of accused witches murdered every year in Africa and India.
June 16th, 2005 at 9:20 pm
white american college student witches.these people tend to be vegitarian,lesbian and environmentalist too.for attention,fashion and some form of self-shaping identity.it`s a sad comment on society that all we have as a foil against a church and state that we are reduced to becoming caricatures.
hey wiccans! slice the throat of a chicken or two.set yourself free.lie naked in the blood for an hour or two in the trees on a full moon.so what if it`s raining,shut the fuck up and pay attention to what
June 16th, 2005 at 9:25 pm
-s going on in your conscious.see if any fucker will mess with you when they look in your eyes after that……………that`s power.life and death.hoooo ya.
or………light candles and hum to yourself.but take your pentagram off if you go to a wedding because if the priest spots it it`ll burn your flesh for eternity.
June 16th, 2005 at 9:38 pm
yay you read harry potter -^_^-
June 16th, 2005 at 9:48 pm
nope, but i did see the movies!
June 16th, 2005 at 10:52 pm
That sounds very tolerant, Tim, but many, if not most, belief systems are mutually exclusive. Saying that it’s good for people to believe whatever they want may make others feel better, but it doesn’t reflect reality.
June 16th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
well, i’m just saying what i think derek. nobody is required to agree with me. you included! anyway, i’m not really sure where you’re going with all this exactly? smells like a sermon!
June 16th, 2005 at 11:20 pm
hundreds of accused witches murdered every year in Africa and India.
———
Or they say “witches don’t sacrifice babies” when what they really mean is WICCANS DON’T SACRIFICE BABiES.
Ever heard of mutu killings, its from the Sangoma traition of South AFrica, right now in london there are little black boys turning up drowned in the Thames with no arms and no internal organs. Someone is having them imported and then sacrificd in a ritual to help a business succeed or to try to cure some curropt old mob bosses’ cancer.
THAT”s witchcraft too, like it or not, there are certainly less sinister kinds, but the arrogance of these Wiccans to claim that they speak for everyone, that thousands of years of history and independent cultural development can just be wiped out by fiat because THEY are uncomfortable with non-white cultures is nothing short of breataking, plus its a form of cultural imperialism that is really just disgusting.
See, what they are doing is trying to redefine the word “witch” and remove all of the dark aspects of it to make it something harmless and acceptable. But a real witch is dealing with issues of life and death as Alistair said, they are confronting and trafficing with REAL powers , not children playing.
June 16th, 2005 at 11:38 pm
Exactly! Worse, the smarty-pants version gets off on calling themselves witches while being as un-witchy as possible. It seems to boil down to:
Grow some mugwort in your yard for “psychic powers.” Act surprised that anyopne else thought it up, because youy learned it fro, granny, who was the seventh blah de blah.
Explain haughtily to people that real witches aren’t like the ones in “The Craft,” and that you really can’t turn people into toads or fly.
Bitch about how horribly evil and intolerant Christians are, and go on at length about the inquisition.
Point out repeatedly that the upside down pentacle is the ’satanic’ one, yours means the four elements and something or toher…maybe.
Tell teen witch that “love spells” are evil for manipulating another’s will, then proceed to impress everyone with the masterful way you used a ‘binding spell’ on the annoying co-worker who saw you pentacle and asked if you were a satanist.
June 16th, 2005 at 11:40 pm
…and, of course, that Wicca is not about the Occult, eating babies, or touching dirty satanists, but about, uh, being in touch with nature and stuff. And um, having crystals on your candle stan- er, altar.
June 17th, 2005 at 12:22 pm
it`s like saying soccer moms discovered soccer.it is mildly irritating,but it doesn`t detract from the world cup,the metaphor for war and saturdays in front of the telly when we were kids watching the match.
the sanitized version of witchcraft will evolve,and i`m sure it has given some purpose to people in thier lives even though it`s a bit like most of the watered down crap we are served as a replacement for living.
it would be interesting to see the motives behind the evolving wicca movement.
June 17th, 2005 at 12:54 pm
derek–
why don’t you come out and say what you’re getting at already? if this doesn’t reflect reality, then there must be some kind of objective reality that people should believe in, right? and you have some idea as to what this objective reality is, right?
then what is it? don’t beat around the bush. we’re all pretty blunt here, and have little tolerance for attempts at jedi mind trix. if you simply mean that there must be a more objective reality somewhere but don’t have a specific example, then say so. or, if you think we’re all headed for the pit of fire because we haven’t accepted jesus into our lives, then say so.
June 17th, 2005 at 12:54 pm
er, bold not intended in above comment. . . .
June 17th, 2005 at 1:14 pm
i took care of it. i think its because you didnt have a line break after your blockquote
June 17th, 2005 at 2:16 pm
On this note, I am actually going to be picking up a book on Scientology to read. Like pagans whining about their stance and public image, Scientology has never had a good public persona and yet it still grows. I figure everyone is into bashing the “clams,” but I honestly don’t know much about the ideology. And I always love getting in bed with the underdogs.
Unless they’re fat and un-attractive underdogs. Then no.
ps — This new WordPress plug-in for real-time display is excellent.
pss — I digress: Batman Begins kicks major ass.
June 17th, 2005 at 4:35 pm
objective reality?i wish i could say that led zeppelin really is good,then i could say that backstreet boys really is/are shite.objective reality………wow,what a concept.another lazy-man`s theology i believe.
June 17th, 2005 at 6:03 pm
No, just logic. Mutually exclusive belief systems can’t possibly both be right!
As one fellow from India put it, “Even in my home country, where accepting mulitple belief systems is a way of life, we still look both ways before crossing the street. It is either me, or it is the bus. It cannot possibly be both.”
June 17th, 2005 at 6:27 pm
ah, but two mutually exclusive belief systems can indeed be correct!
i believe in the metric system. i have a 2 liter bottle. do i spend my life trying to convince people that it’s 2 liter bottles if they believe it’s 3.52 pints? yet the metric system and the imperialist system are absolutely mutually exclusive.
or are you here to ask tim & his readers to convert, as your website seems to indicate you’re interested in doing?
June 17th, 2005 at 9:29 pm
No, just logic. Mutually exclusive belief systems can’t possibly both be right”
Woe be to you then, if you’ve bought the wrong myth ticket.
June 17th, 2005 at 11:22 pm
Exactly my point!
June 18th, 2005 at 12:02 am
i guess the best thing to do then, if that’s your point, would be to buy ALL the myth tickets!
June 18th, 2005 at 2:42 pm
or none.mutually exclusive belief systems can both be right,logically,because the belief systems are only correct and valid for the person utilising them.unless we use that as a ground for our analysis then we can criticise and persicute if we wish.if you take two catholics or episcopalians or discordians, and inventory how they relate to thier faith you,would discover two different internal representations of the faith.things mean different things to different people.witnesses at an accident report a variety of different versions of the event.we bring our preconceptions to every experience.tihs stuff is no different.
but belief systems are not busses,derek.i don`t think we can safely bring logic into discussions about faith without things disappearing.
June 18th, 2005 at 7:27 pm
I doubt it, Derek. The point is, while folks are standing in line for tickets, the truth train whistles by unnoticed.
June 19th, 2005 at 5:25 am
1. i wear my symbol(not a pentagram btw) and i have told others i am a witch when they ask me what it means. i am matter of fact about it. some say “cool” but most just say oh,and change the subject. ive never felt threatened. if anything,i get a look like “another one of those weirdos who still believes in a god.” its not an issue. i dont get much attention from it,and thats good,because thats not why i got into it.
2. the witches from africa are not the only ones who have commitment. they are not the only ones who can get results. alot of pagans are hokey its true(modern witchcraft for lonely kids and bored housewives)but some of the traditions from Europe are much older. we dont brag about our beliefs either. we only consider people we know well who are committed to study and practice. not just anyone can “join the club.” you have to have intelligence and maturity. its not like gandalf or harry potter. real magic
(if you want to call it that)works much more subtle,like christian prayers.
3. the “path” lies within your mind. call your belief system by whatever name you wish,but the key is in the power of thought. if you believe hard enough and concentrate long enough,you can get results,regardless of your cultural orientation. the ceremonies involved are merely tools used to focus thought energy and to train the mind to see beyond the every day veil. humans have more power within themselves than they know. your life energy springs from the divine. when you meditate,pray,or cast a spell,you are really just opening up your mind to non-human energies. this can be good or really bad. this is why greenies shouldnt play with fire.
4. there sure is alot of hate evident whenever people discuss religion. isnt arguing about whos religion is better kind of like saying “my dad can beat up your dad?” problem is,when it comes time for the rumble,neither “dad” shows up for the fight. maybe that should tell you something…