-tc

I mean, I understand the point that you need to have some focused discipline to accomplish something, regardless of the structure you choose.

It just seems to me that your rational is shifting a bit.

You started off talking about the dangers of playing with fire, of “getting burned”, which seems to indicate a concern over being unprepared or unitiated to deal with negative results. On the other hand you’ve sequed and tried to attach that to this latter idea of the inability of uninitiated non-traditional forms to achieve results to begin with.

Those are both valid, but completely, unrelated criticisms.

If they’re just engaging in ego masturbation then there are not potentially harmful negative results to be concerned about.

If they get results, well then, they’re not just wanking off. Though it may have unforeseen negative consequences.

Like I said, two valid concerns/criticisms, but completely distinct from one another.

I Can Do That!

Haeresis left a really good comment on the Pop Culture Magick post: The ‘pop’ crowd gets under my sk [...]

I quite agree. A person should show some dedication to what s/he is doing. A dedicated practice done daily yields far more than just the occasional result.

As far as being ‘prepared.’ that of course has different meaning to different ppl. The ‘pop’ crowd gets under my skin because they remind me of the ppl who look at picasso paintings and say, ‘that’s just scribble, I can do that.’ Even a natural gift for it won’t give you the benefit of experience and dedicated practice. If an ‘octarine’ ritual gets results, then that’s great…but in a lot of cases, these ‘do yer own thing’ promoters are really broadcasting their own intellectual laziness and lack of stick-to-itiveness. If the silly shit worked, you’d see a better body of work coming from the fairy wicca camp..but one doesn’t.

On a ‘theoretical’ note, I also think that ‘established programs’ tend to work better, because if you’re within [an] established system/s, you’ve got a ready made ‘egregore’ to work with.

By the same token, true, some people may get burned ‘playing with fire’ as it were, but I’m not at all interested in playing gatekeeprer or spending any amount of time being concerned about it or evaluating the maturity of others.

Personal inclination and all that…

It’s been my experience that those who spend time determining who or what is “suitable” or “prepared” are frequently playing some other game. It’s not as if the provinces of magic or the mind fit easily into some objective criteria [like, say, being "prepared" to run a marathon, or swim a mile...]

But, in general, this “Magic is not for all” tends to strike me as elitist crap.

In all faoirness, I did not say that, nor do I buy into that. I have, however, seen up close and personal, the effects of playing with fire. To say that magick is suitable only for the prepared is hardly elitist, unless one considers a requirement of maturity ‘elitist.’ Promethius brought fire to mankind, but there will always be people who burn themselves up.

There’s a reason this is an initiatory tradition.

With all due respect, I always kinda figured it was an initiatory tradition, mostly, because that since the advent of the church, going around willy nilly could get you, you know, excommunicated, exiled, burned, jailed, etc. The initiation process was mostly a screening process to ensure that person could be trusted.

I mean, occult means hidden because the knowledge had to be kept hidden from the powers that me.

Now, I do realize the possible dangers in exposing some folks to techs of psychological change and or manipulation… psychotic breaks/schizophrenia/et al… or if you deal in the spirit model of model, unleashing dangerous entities into the world…

But, in general, this “Magic is not for all” tends to strike me as elitist crap.

I mean, just think how amazing the world would be if everyone was their own magician, enacting their true will on the world and in their life. I think if the concept of Pop Magic helps make that work, more power to it.

Her novels are “pop” insofar as they’re written in a sort of fun, accessible style that doesn’t require a lot of thought or esoteric knowledge in order to appreciate them. But they’re not “pop culture” because you’re not going to find her on the bestseller list wedged between Patterson and Michael Crichton or whoever’s a popular writer today.

I love the Wraeththu books, but I agree. Laurell K. Hamilton *shudder* seems like she’d be more appropriate.

i dunno..

seems pretty dark to me, considering the culture of apathy that has evolved & the current state of world affairs…

just because they dont know what the fuck they are doing, doesnt mean they arent doing it.

the whole, dark spirituality argument, thats a non winnable one, so im not gonna try, but IMO, there is dark & light forces… from a finite perspective of course…

one
human?

You want dark spirituality go to Jamaica and apprentice with an Obeah-man and learn about necromancy but sorry dressing up like adam ant and dancing around to crappy synthesizer music ain’t it

hehehe, and i dont think im supposed to know that either

but you know, people talk, especially when they are females, tipsy, and trying to prove a point…

check this image

there is a reason the Rocafella record labels crew handsign is what it is… dudes got everyone throwing up the all seeing eye….

ahhhh man, the occult stories ive got from the music scene are crazy, but there are definitly some things im not about to blow spots on in order to avoid beef…

but word, as for the wand thing… check this:

http://www.mysticconvergence.com/store/view_product.php?product=AV-HOLLY

Description:
Holly possesses protection qualities which far surpass any other wood and is on record for its overall strength. Holly is the chosen wood for use in performing and guiding dream magic.

hmmm…..

one
human?

Max: those are awesome examples of people doing this already, and doing it in a way that doesn’t give more power to corporate bullshit.

of course haiti is totally impoverished but the cast off relics of 1st world culture become altar items for another, e.g., darth vader becomes baron samedi, natassja kinski and the snake becomes damballah the serpent god etc.

they don’t buy it though they use what they find

by the book too. he should take a cue from RAW’s exercises on Prometheus Rising.

pop culture IS the product of magicians IMO….

and from my observations, pop culture has blatenly become pop occulture, and the magic is very dark.

has anybody seen what Britney Spears wears nowadays? geeeezzz….. or the 2 headed dog logo for MTV2? or Liminy Snickets A Series of Unfortunate Events?????

Jay Z is a freemason, Madonna is a Kabbalist & Tom Cruise…. well, you know… lol

its all occult (really, all of it…so called “American” culture)… from money to buildings to television & movies…. we need to start dealing with it all like it really is, like its being conjured up by some very powerful wizards…

now im off to check this dudes site…..

one
human?