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Money In Spirituality
Let’s start with a little something from Matthew 21:12-13:
Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all those engaged in selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
And he said to them, “It is written: ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you are making it a den of thieves.”
A while ago Jeremy wrote an excellent guide to getting involved with gnosticism in a social setting, religiously, study-wise, etc. I think it’s a good guide not just from a gnostic perspective, but in the larger spiritual sense as well. One of the “rules of thumb” that he offers here and elsewhere is to beware of any spiritual group which requires you to give them money to be a part of it.
I’ll readily admit that I’ve always sided with this line of thinking, that spirituality should be open and accessible to all. But I’ve been wondering if this is really enough of a criteria. What I mean by that is aren’t there groups that you can get involved that are just as dangerous (or perhaps more) that don’t require anything of you financially? How do you spot such a group, and in what ways would they “bleed” you if not through money? While I think the “psychic vampirism” model might be applied here, I’d like to try to keep the discussion a little more concrete or practical. Trying to detect psychic vampires seems like an even more difficult thing to spot ahead of time if you’re trying to get involved in a group spiritually.
The other question I want to ask here is are there times where it’s actually good or somehow useful or legitimate to be in some type of group that you have to pay for. I’m asking it because I can’t see a positive answer that I can really stand behind, but maybe somebody out there has one. I went into one aspect of this a few days ago, asking if there are times spiritually where you should surrender your personal sovereignty. On it, Zac wrote:
Now, in certain segments of guru yoga or master relationships, it is a method to transfer all one’s authority to the master, as an intermediary to surrender one’s ego to the infinite.
I actually kind of like that argument, at least from an idealized if not realistic perspective. The other answer I’ve seen to this dilemma comes from Reiki healing.
Hawayo Takata claimed that after developing the Reiki methodology as well as receiving the spiritual ability to practice it, Usui went to the slums of Tokyo to attempt the healing of beggars. However, after several years he claimed that it is their mindset that keeps them ill even when they were “treated” by him time after time. This gave rise to the principle that there should be an “energy exchange” in return for a Reiki treatment. This may take the form of payment or a trade of some sort. The idea is that the patient regards the treatment as having a value and is prepared to invest himself/herself in the healing process.
I really don’t like this argument, and tend to disagree with it on a gut level. So that’s precisely why I’m tossing it into the mix here. Maybe somebody can come up with a compelling defense for it - or else a really solid blistering attack of it.
One more piece of fuel comes from another item Jeremy linked to about witches invading the corporate world. The article reads in part:
The former public relations manager turned pagan and author of There’s A Witch In The Boardroom said people were looking for new ways to combine spiritual values with their material success.
“There’s a belief out there that you can’t be spiritual and make money at the same time,” Ms Demarco said.
This is one of those things that I have an automatic knee-jerk reaction against it, because I think it’s bullshit. But I realize that when I press myself on the matter, I can’t come up with a good articulation of why it’s bullshit. Since I’m trying to systematically examine my most basic assumptions, I think this is a good one to throw on the fire and see what comes out of it.
- Money & Spirituality: Back In Black
- Religion Vs. Spirituality
- The Pop Spirituality Dichotomy
- Money is not the opposite of love
- Survival & Spirituality
- Prev: Is Scientology Gnostic?
- Next: Are you a meth-head?
July 5th, 2005 at 9:49 pm
it seems to me once you let money be “OK” you quickly can hide any selfishness in the guise of spirituality, but somehow spirituality should be above selfishness. but i guess money doesn’t *have* to be about selfishness, since it takes money to print books and pay for the heat in a meditation hall. but were Bhagwan’s many Rolls Royce’s really necessary or benefiting anyone else? i doubt it.
July 5th, 2005 at 9:52 pm
In a sense though, I’d counter that with that for most people, it seems like spirituality ultimately IS a selfish endeavor. Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s wrong. Maybe it’s unavoidable. Christians don’t try to save other people’s souls until they are sure theirs is taken care of.
July 5th, 2005 at 9:59 pm
On the Demarco quote: the problem with it is that it completely ignores the way global economies work. “Making money” in the corporate world is usually at the expense of other people (often people in developing nations or disadvantaged groups in the developed world) and also at the expense of the environment. I don’t know how you can claim to be spiritual without seeing those connections.
On the other hand, if you see those connections and choose to cash in anyway, perhaps using your witchy powers, well… that brings us back to some of the arguments about “what is spirituality” from last week. But it doesn’t fit within my spiritual framework.
I don’t think we need to make ourselves profoundly uncomfortable economically (although I’m sure there is spiritual benefit in that at some point on your path). But putting the acquisition of money as central goal in your life after knowing where the money comes from seems wrong to me.
July 5th, 2005 at 10:04 pm
That’s a great point. Say you have some money and you share it with somebody else. Then you
both have lesshave less (and they have more). But with knowledge, you share it with somebody, and nobody loses anything.July 5th, 2005 at 10:13 pm
tim, that is wonderfully corny and very true.
July 5th, 2005 at 11:10 pm
additionally.. i received my reiki certification a year ago and i’ve never charged anyone for a session, nor will i. i prefer to give it freely.
July 5th, 2005 at 11:20 pm
ok….it`s a little late and i`m tired but here goes.
money is a symbol of effort. beggars have little because, for whatever reason, they became shut off from thier access to the will to work. we can find examples of excess, but for this discussion, you get paid directly as a result of your effort.
i won`t claim to be spiritual because i don`t have a definition of what it means to be spiritual to calibrate with, but i fail to see the connection with my earnings depriving others of things and i don`t see the scaling up to the corporate level taking things away from others either. this suggests some mythological zero-sum economy globally and that is unproven.
phew!
having money isn`t selfish…………the potential for selfishness is within all of us and i would suggest that selfishness is the reason that some people have issues of poverty in thier lives.(anger and resentment).
davee, you have to go a great distance to find an example of greed within the spiritual field.the bhagwan or sun yung moon or peter popoff are charletans. the distinction is clear.
my personal experience is that i have found that when i do work for free i fail every time, plainly and simply because people value things based on how much they paid for them. i sell tools. the perception in people`s minds is that “if i paid x dollars for the product, it will give me x dollars of effectiveness.”
i know practitioners who say they wouldn`t dare charge what i charge. i respond that thier clients wished that they did because they are good at what they do and need to tell people that via price.
some get it.
tim, if you share your money with someone else you have less, they have more. the knowledge part is valid. sorry for the hair split but i know you want to be accurate.
as a practitioner i know that i deserve to be rewarded for the service i do in the community. where does my value point lie? a nurse gets paid well. lawyer gets paid more. a surgeon gets paid more than both combined. i perform surgery, i argue points like a lawyer and i nurse people from session to session. does my pay reflect the combination of these skills? oh yes, and i do magic tricks, make things disappear and tell stories. i`m also an actor and stand up comedian in my work. if ever i make half a million a year i might start to feel guilty.
i have also lived in my car for a while and spent time living in rented rooms. niether of these experiences added spiritually. they made me determined to earn enough to keep a roof over my head.
try telling your kids you are on a spiritual path and can`t afford to buy them a bike or new soccer shoes because they grow so fast they need new ones every year. try telling you wife she can`t go to dinner on her birthday because you don`t believe in the spiritual vacuum of being waited on.
abundance is a large part of my belief system. i see evidence of it everywhere. i fail to see how a person can do poverty. you would have to wear a paper bag full time not to see the opportunities all around us. or be mentally ill, of course.
magic(k) gets us into the jet stream of possibility. it get`s our eyes open to the potential. when we include ourselves in the potential then more magic happens.
money is a direct measure of the effectiveness of your incantation.
say that seven times each morning with a carrot up your ass for a month and make sure the carrot is cleaned first.
July 5th, 2005 at 11:46 pm
i know a guy with really amazing spiritual powers
he has made tumors disappear gotten people out of jail etc ad nauseum
he charges money but it basically based on what people can afford
he throws the bones to find out
if the bones say no he doesn’t charge at all
if the bones say yes he won’t help them no matter what they offer to pay
but in 99% of cases he charges something, even if its only a few pennies
he says that if you do things for people for free then their problem will stick to you
when there’s an exchange then the problem gets shunted off into nonordinary reality and off of both him and his client
but we are talking about tangible benfits here, if he didn’t know what he was doing he wouldn’t have clients
he doesn’t advertise but they’re beating a path to his door anyway
this is very typical in the shamanic world view based on my experience
a lot of people are walking around fille dwith light and love and good energy but no defenses
it only takes one greedy asshole to come along and penetrate your armor and suck you dry
to change the way you look at things
we live in the world in this case the money is a medium of exchange
Now if I could only beleieve that my artwork was worth all the effort i had put into it i would be rich by now
instead i give it away to friends etc
go figure!
July 5th, 2005 at 11:59 pm
Alistair, I tend to agree with the direction you’re headed with that. I’m just starting to think that everybody’s right. The people who seem “more right” about things I find just have a better ability to articulate things.
That makes a LOT of sense actually. I know that there are times I’ve done things for people for free and when you do that, it really does become your problem, instead of you just being able to help with their problem. I like this idea that the money becomes sort of a shield between the people, and a recognition that this is just a problem. It doesn’t have to belong to somebody. It can be dealt with. That makes more and more sense to me.
I knew you guys would have good arguments on this. This is just what I was looking for and what I would have never come up with on my own.
July 6th, 2005 at 12:11 am
You can be spiritual and make money but if you make your spirituality the main source of your income then you run the real risk of getting into a situation where you are dishonoring and disrespecting your spirituality by prostituting it IMHO
collecting money to cover costs and effort is OK in my book
but keep your day job too
that way you don’t need the money and can afford to keep your principles
kinda like a fine artist who works in graphic design for an evil corporation
keep the art separate from the day job that way it can be beautiful on its own terms and hey if you sell a painting too, awesome!
then again do i think http://www.alexgrey.com/ is unspiritual because he makes a living off his art?
how about authors who make a living off of their books, e.g., the Gnostic Gospels
How do you use money without letting it get you dirty?
See it as neutral I guess - we all need to eat. Don’t love it just accept it for what it is
an energy which comes and goes
July 6th, 2005 at 12:32 am
that’s interesting. i just posted about why i DON”T charge money.. but i think there are some really good points here. especially about the problems sticking to you. i’ve often wondered about that, but i never connected it to whether or now i was charging a fee. and that ties in nicely with the spiritual parasitism issue.
i’m going to sleep now but more on this tomorrow !
July 6th, 2005 at 12:33 am
one more thing, max — i met alex grey and had a really awesome conversation with him. his success has not corrupted him AT ALL, his energy is really sweet and floaty.. VERY kind soul.
July 6th, 2005 at 9:02 am
I can think of another reason here. Some people won’t accept a thing to have power over them (in whatever way) if it’s given for free. For a person with a mindset like that, it would negate the intended good. But if you have them first give over something, whether it’s money or something else, that gives it meaning to them.
I’m not saying that everyone is like this, but a good few are around.
July 6th, 2005 at 9:33 am
That’s a very good point, and it relates to the other ‘value’ topic we’ve been at, which is initiation. Something that must be earned or bestowed will almost always have a higher perceived value than something published in trade paperback.
(Try switching the labels on a couple bottles of wine if you want a mundane example of the pv effect!)
Money and spirituality have a very uneasy relationship, and I don’t know if it can ve resolved in opur current model. Max had a really great point when he mentioned the value to the tribe. Sure, you pay the shaman in chickens and whiskey, but he’s a dedicated civil servant who’s expected to produce. In this culture, tho, anyone can hang a shaman shingle, and there’s no consumer reports on psychic healers. (Then again, there’s no saving the rubes from themselves.) The scammers and their prey are unfortunate, but unavoidable in capitalist cultures.
What really concerns me is when ppl with real intent go astray..I’ve seen some truly gifted psychics get some popularity and completely blow it- first, they’re paying the bills, then they’re rationalizing the fortune telling parties or crappy books, or their exorbitant fees, because they’re ‘helping’ people…and the sad thing is, most of them aren’t helping anyone, they’re creating junkies dependent on ego flattery and bad advice.
IOW, I don’t trust any clergy person of any stripe who works for more than basic human comforts.
July 6th, 2005 at 9:36 am
I do like Alex Grey. I have a couple of his books and they’ve generated a lot of interesting discussions on spiritual topics with my kids.
July 6th, 2005 at 10:00 am
Um, a country?
You pay taxes (no other mandatory participation required, except the occasional draft and “mandatory” presence in courts, jails and prisons if you break the rules)
Taxation is the price of liberty.
Saddam had no taxes. Lots of tyrannies do.
July 6th, 2005 at 11:24 am
Robert Anton Wilson makes a good argument in the Schroedinger’s Cat trilogy for money being a form of magick–it’s value is ultimately based upon an unspoken agreement among all people that it DOES have value…and money can be created out of nothing, either by speculation or physical endeavors…I feel that pursuing this perspective might help one to dissociate from money to an extent, to see it as a neutral tool. It may be easier for some, may take Buddha-like efforts for others, but that may go along way toward preventing money from corrupting you. Definitely, the money changers parable points out the dangers inherent in mixing money with spirituality, but it can be transcended in ways that don’t require you to overturn tables and kick asses.
“Make money money/ but please don’t waste money/ We don’t love money/ but we don’t hate money”
–”Trade Money”, Dilated People
July 6th, 2005 at 12:17 pm
yeah in my thing i say “My Rule of Thumb is that a so-called Gnostic Church that *requires* any kind of monetary donation is probably not worth your time.” of course, that’s “requires.” obviously, one couldn’t make a blanket statement about the money thing, just like anything else. holy folks gotta eat, too. i don’t tend to have a problem with the idea of donations, but implying that only those who donate will receive the wisdom is what i don’t like. just cause someone’s unable to afford a monetary requirement doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to follow a particular path, imp.
as for shamans who charge for services and whatnot, well that’s something else entirely. gotta pay yer doctor. in a perfect world, it’d all be based on bartering items or skills but that’s just not how we’re set up. i’m talking about people who would have you pay for access to the path to god, but asking someone to pay for a service rendered doesn’t seem to carry as many negative connotations.
fwiw, i suppose it’s possible that some ‘free’ paths are detrimental & exploitative, but i can’t think of any off of the top of my head.
July 6th, 2005 at 12:47 pm
I like what Rev max had to say here. Personally, I work in design and that is how I make a living. I also guest-lecture at the University of Alberta on contemporary occultism and chaos magic once a semester. I do his freely, and the prof is always nice enough to leave me with a small gift — once it was a Buddhist charm, another time it was a novelty voodoo doll (in the form of a sheep) — all as an act of appreciation.
There is a monk who lives here in Edmonton that teaches martial arts on the grounds of the U of A, and he asks that his students pay him for his services as a token of their worth of his doings. It’s not a lot, mind you, $20 a month for one of the most amazing fighters I’ve ever had the pleasure of seeing, but it holds worth.
I also have clients that are reiki masters, they teach at MacEwan College, and run a practice in which they treat clients with reiki, NLP, and a form of existential counselling. They are wonderful, spiritual people, and they do this for a living. In a world where money is the symbol of commodity, commerce, and a social means of interaction.
A few years ago I also did some stuff with a thirteenth-generation Chilcotin medicine man. He held a degree in psychology, I believe it was, and spent most of his time volunteering with the troubled youth of the inner city. A few days a week, he’d work in cafés around town as a tarot reader. Yes, he charged for his time. He also would hold workshops once a season or so on developing psychic ability. And yes, he charged for these workshops also.
As far as corporatism and the occult goes, I am fairly certain that I’ve read about Grant Morrison, author of The Invisibles and head of an Illuminates of Thanateros chapter in England (chaos magicians), speaking to executives and marketing people about magic and sorcery.
When would it be okay to charge? I’ve always dreamed of an occult institute, a school where one could go to pursue studies in magic and the occult. I figure it’d be very similar in nature to The Banff Centre, located in the Rocky Mountains of Alberta.
There is also a very open possibility (in Canada, at least… I’m not sure about how it would fly in the U.S.) that a not-for-profit organisation could be registered in order to bring what we refer to as spirituality back to everyday life, as well as working them into improving the human environment, developing professions in which shamanism and the occult wouldn’t be censured, and serve the existing persons out there with legal, promotional, and other forms of aid.
Money is part of the game of life, ergo part of the overall story we have all decided to incorporate ourselves into. You can either embrace the structure which we have and try to make it better — la designer Bruce Mau or Oxfam International — or we can all sit around bitching and complaining about what is “right” and what is “wrong,” when just days prior everyone in this field is arguing about whether and right and wrong even fucking exist.
Define yourselves by your actions, not by your thoughts.
July 6th, 2005 at 1:46 pm
And yes, in case anyone is wondering, I donate monthly to Amnesty International and Oxfam Canada. I also donate to the World Wildlife Fund on an annual basis.
I also do pro-bono work for the holistic health industry here, and have donated my services to the City of Edmonton’s committee that deals with homelessness. My roommates run an esteemed restaurant here in the city and also run a charity program in which they take almost–past-due foods from local grocery markets, and they donate their time and equipment to turn them into stews. These foods are donated weekly to the homeless and needy.
I wouldn’t be able to do much, if any of this, if I didn’t make money. It’s not like I make a lot of money, either, trust me.
An acquaintance of mine once told me something that sticked when I was in high school: You can’t take care of anybody else if you don’t take care of yourself first.
July 6th, 2005 at 2:57 pm
I think the valuable part of asking a patient/penitent whatever to pay for spiritual services is not the fee raised. It is forcing the supplicant to acknowledge that what they are receiving has a real value to them.
Give child a toy and expect it to be quickly broken and forgotten. But if the child earns that toy through hard work and accomplishment then it will be cherished and cared for.
I don’t think a mystic should accept or charge money for services. That is demeaning to both parties, money is too abstract, it doesn’t have any real value to most people. (yes, you value your money, but you can get more, and it’s not usually that hard, depending on the amounts being discussed).
A far better way to create perceived value in a service is to require that a service be performed. This is as old as human culture and immediately understood by the supplicant. If the task is too onerous for them to undertake, then they do not value the service enough.
For a mystic to say :”I will heal you if you prepare my meals for a week” is far more involving of the supplicant’s time and will than ” I will heal you and I ask that you donate $100 to my ministry.”
It would be possible for a true mystic to live a simple life supported entirely by these kinds services from supplicants. And that’s the end result: even a mystic must eat and have a place to sleep out of the elements to live. His supplicants can provide that as he provides them guidance and healing. Once that guideance is no longer enough, the supplicant is free to leave.
July 6th, 2005 at 3:16 pm
It would be possible for a true mystic to live a simple life supported entirely by these kinds services from supplicants. And that’s the end result: even a mystic must eat and have a place to sleep out of the elements to live. His supplicants can provide that as he provides them guidance and healing.
————————
A nice ideal but what if you wind up with an unbalanced or manipulative personality who gets off on being waited on and having his supplicants on site 24-7 - what’s next?
I’ll trade you my assistance for some oral sex? That basically what a lot of those guru communes in the 60s turned into aint it?
People can go to a mystic to fix a problem, it doesn’t mean they have to live with him or even adopt his beliefs. Mayvbe they just solve the problem and get on with their lives.
July 6th, 2005 at 3:55 pm
Well, that $100 may be used to feed the ministry for that week while they prepare for theri next week’s sermons and charitible works, no? I doubt they’re out there blowing it on cocaine and hookers like I would.
Why do we spend so much time arguing what-ifs? What if monkeys flew out of my butt? I’d be embarrassed for a while, then sell the rights to tv for a million dollars. Then I’d buy a bunch of cocaine and hookers.
I think this is an important note, because not everyone’s life-story are perpendicular. Many people just want a service, and whether the individual in question with this capability to provide this service wants to do so for money, food, a blowjob, or good will is totally up to them and fits into their experiences with their own life-story.
Who are we to criticise?
July 6th, 2005 at 4:40 pm
the money sybolises the expenditure of effort. when we are talking about exchanging sevices for services we are doing the same thing as paying cash. the money is attained by work. it seems convoluted and somewhat contrary, in my view, to decry such an efficient system as money and replace it with a leaky boat like barter. one can buy the blowjob elsewhere and choose the provider!
i know what i do and how effective it is and i`m thankfull that people aren`t offering goats or oral sex as payment. i find script currency much easier to negotiate with at the grocery store or my insurance company.(although, fiat currency is another rabbit hole to fall into.)
July 2nd, 2006 at 9:58 pm
[…] My sister has always had a parallel interest to mine in these types of subjects: shamanism, healing, psychic stuff, you know the drill by this point. But she’s had her own very different (and much less public) path with all of it. One of the things that she has gotten into over the years is Reiki healing. She’s gone through all the training and gotten some kind of certification as a master from somebody else is a master. That whole thing is a pretty interesting process, which I have mixed feelings about. Actually, there have been a lot of things about Reiki that have made my opinion of it flip-flop a lot over the years. But I’m interested in giving everything a chance at this point, and my sister offered to show me some things which I really appreciated. Because as much as I violate this advice all the time, you can’t really know about something like this until you experience it - and sometimes not even then. […]