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“So it’s mechanical?”
I thought people were cool. I thought people liked to debate stuff.
And then I pissed off the wrong group of chaos magickians!
Now, it all started when I rather haphazardly made some comments about Taylor Ellwood’s book, and some needless ad hominem attacks. Since then, I’ve cleared that up with Ellwood, apologized, and written a more thorough critique of his work, without any personal jabs. While we’re waiting for that to catch up with me, I’d like to examine one particular dude who I thought was just being an outright jerk. Admittedly, I was too (possibly more than this guy). But I admit that. That’s the thing. Chances are, this dude, never will. Hear that dude? That’s a challenge! Everybody’s wrong sometimes. Even you!
The dude in question goes by the handle, “Freeman”. He’s got his own LiveJournal website and everything, where he claims to have “blasted” me, whatever that means. Actually, here’s what he thinks that means. This is the comment he left in defense of Ellwood. I don’t really feel like I’ve been “blasted”, but I’ll let you decide that for yourself.
I don’t even know where to start on this. Your ignorance of modern magical practice seems, from what you have written here, to be almost total. Instead of reviewing one book which is way out on a branch of the tree, you need to start reading from the trunk up, until you have a notion of why that branch is there.
Pick up some Francis King for history, everything you can find by Israel Regardie, Triumph of the Moon for the history of “modern Pagan witchcraft,” one of the biographies of Crowley (you’re on your own for making sense out of Crowley, or ask your friendly local Thelemite), and then some Carroll and Hine for the Chaos Current. Get drunk with Grant Morrison if you get a chance.
Anyway, read enough of this stuff that you at least begin to suspect that there are modern mages who are not just foolish dilettantes and “big fat dorks” who play at magick because they suck at life. That may help you put the “big fat dorks” you do meet in perspective, and tell them apart from serious people.
Now, I certainly appreciate the book recommendations. I think it’s great for everyone to share what they know with each other in an open forum. I try to do that on my site, but not always successfully. But here’s what I’m not interesting in: some kind of preposterous magickal pissing contest. So you’ve read more books that me on one particular topic. Does that mean anything to anybody anywhere at any time? If it does to you, then consider me blasted!
Unfortunately, this doesn’t mean much to me. What it means to me is that I may be onto something with my recent line of inquiry comparing the occult to an endless game of who can pull in more second-hand references to support a very abstract and possibly pointless thing to argue about. What does any of this even matter? None of us know each other in “real” life (well, some of us), so why do we get so worked up about it? It’s totally weird to me.
Furthermore, I find it AMAZING that Freeman goes to such lengths to tell me how I haven’t read enough books, and then on his own website where he’s “safe” admits he hasn’t even read the book that I was talking about!
I haven’t gotten around to reading PCM [Ellwood’s book]. It briefly occurred to me to try to take TB up on his offer to sell his copy cheap
Well guess what! My offer still stands to sell you my book, but now you have to pay double the cover price for being a hypocrite! (Anyone else is still allowed to buy it for like maybe ten bucks plus shipping)
Even worse than that though is a comment left by somebody else on “Freeman’s” blog, in reference to me. “Lupabitch” writes:
Some people abuse the freedom of speech. I say we abuse them with baseball bats.
And you can take that as literally as you wish.
Is that a fucking threat? Are you really fucking prepared to back that up and come physically assault me because I called one of your internet pals a “dork”? Has the whole world gone insane?
And let’s look at what everybody’s going so insane about. In essence all I suggested was that some people take themselves too seriously. Are you proving me wrong? Where’s your chaos magick sense of humor? Did you lose it while reading all those books?
The inherent paradox in all of this is that people who are into the occult, who practice ritual magick, whatever are supposed to be more open-minded than everybody else. They go on and on about being spiritually advanced, and about being able to bypass troublesome parts of their mind, and “reprogram” themselves and even reality itself. And this is the result? Idle threats over the internet? Some enlightenment. I’ll wallow in my blatant ignorance and uncertainty any fucking day of the week over this steaming pile of monkey shit. This shit smells so bad that flies won’t even come near it.
Why are some occultists just as dogmatic (or more) than fundamentalist Christians? Gasp! It’s true! And you know it. If somebody comes along and criticizes your hard-earned falsely-persecuted spirituality, you fold up like a folder folded by somebody who’s a professional folderer. (Hehe, sorry!) At least Christians know it’s fucked up to physically threaten people. Jesus would never like that. What about your Wiccan Rede? Er, do chaos magickians go by that? Probably not.
Seriously though, what good is spirituality if you’re just trading one dogma for another one? I thought the call of the “Freeman” was to be free of all such hang-ups. To rise above the mental and spiritual traps that befall everybody else. To boldly go where no man has gone before… Well, you catch my meaning anyway.
Did you ever see that Bugs Bunny episode (it’s called “Hare-Raising Hare”) and this little evil scientist guy makes this mechanical girl rabbit to catch Bugs, because he knows how horny Bugs is all the time. For a while, Bugs follows it around thinking it’s a real girl. Eventually though, he finds out it’s mechanical, and that he’s been duped. As the episode ends, Bugs just shrugs his shoulders and says, “So it’s mechanical?” And walks off into the dark to make out with her. I guess my point with all that is to ask you, and to ask myself: do you believe in something totally mechanical? Do you not know it’s rigid and dogmatic, or do you just not care? Cause I fucking care. I care a lot. That’s the whole point of my website.
Real girls are better than robots.
- Bill Clinton & the Mechanical Zombie Bear
- The Scientific Rationale Behind Total Surveillance
- Robot Camel Jockeys
- Direct hit!
- Fake Muscles!
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July 5th, 2005 at 6:12 am
hey Tim, i got a great idea….
we should introduce Freeman & Co. to the folks over at the RI board, step back & let them at each other….
seems like Freeman is a big dog over at Temple Zagduku
from their Beliefs page:
We believe that any sexual activity between (or among) informed, mature, and consenting adults is appropriate and is one of the sacred joys of life to be celebrated, not hidden away as though it were shameful. We recognize the vast potential of sex magic, and many of us practice it in various forms.
Blood, urine, other bodily fluids, hair, fingernails, and indeed all body parts are sacred and magical in our tradition. They are neither lightly sacrificed nor given for mundane purposes. Temple Zagduku considers it a grave crime against the spirit to take any of these things from a person against his/her will.
We believe that to develop spiritually in any meaningful way, one must explore both the lighter and darker aspects of existence.
sure, whatever floats your boat….. but…… from their Membership page:
Minors are only accepted if at least one parent is also a member of Temple Zagduku. Parental permission must accompany all applications for their minor children.
very slippery slope IMO……
a little more research shows that Freeman’s girl Lili, in addition to making jewelry, has penned a little ditty called the “Moontime Creed” and has a Cafepress shop pushing her thing….
Celebrate the magic and power of menstruation with these woman-affirming products!
“Moontime” is a term for menstruation that references the similarity of women’s monthly cycle to that of the moon’s cycles.
Do you know a young lady who just began her bleeding? We have great gifts to let her feel as special as she is. Want to honor your own bleeding? We have just the thing.
Some of our items have the “Moontime Creed” by Lili Wood. Be sure to click on the links for larger images so that you can read this woman-affirming poem!
read the creed.
hows that for some twisted synchronicity…..
one
human?
July 5th, 2005 at 8:32 am
I think a lot of your comments are spot on. I tend to eschew dogma of any sort, long term.
But I do think temporary experiments with dogmatic ideas can be revealing, psychologically.
Though ultimately I tend to think that dogmatism is something to be transcended. I think that’s one advantage of occultic belief systems, is that they’re designed so that if you go far enough down the rabbit hole you can come out the other side and see the inanity of any rigid belief system.
I do think that a lot of people, both in mainstream religion and occultism, fool themselves into thinking that what THEY’RE doing isn’t rigid or dogmatic or mechanical. But the truth is most people crave surety and answers and finality. You’re quotes from Mckenna the other day touched on this. Once you’ve settled on any ONE idea, system or truth, you’re probably missing something.
The only way is no way, the art of fighting without fighting, no-mind, the meta-model model , etc, etc
But people become so invested in and identified with their belief systems that any questioning of the system is seen as an attack on them.
I think the intelligent response to the “big, fat dork” thing, by the author or his “acolytes” should have been to laugh you off or engage in a meaningful exchange of ideas. Defensiveness, indignation or any of that nonsense smacks of insecurity.
July 5th, 2005 at 9:36 am
My, you read a lot that wasn’t there into what I wrote.
There were two ways you could have had standing to write what you did about PCM (and even then, the ad hominems were over the top, and people will remember them whether or not they check back to see where you straightened it all out with Taylor): by being a practicing magician, or by having at least read enough about it to understand where it comes from. You admitted to having done neither.
I was reacting to the incompetence of your attack, not in some “OMG he’s gored my sacred cow!” flareup.
I don’t know how big your readership is, but using your blog as a platform to piss on people isn’t going to improve it. (Or is it? Do you want people reading you just to see your next juvenile outburst? That would probably get you lots of hits).
You suckered me in with your “Occult Investigator” persona, then I find out you’re “investigating” in the sense of “finding out about it for the first time.”
You also referred to me as having been “offended” before. I wasn’t then; I am now.
Cute pun on my name, too.
P.S., I’m not even going to guess why Lupa went where she did. You needn’t try to tar me with that brush.
July 5th, 2005 at 9:43 am
Freeman….
are minors present during your sex magick rituals?
July 5th, 2005 at 10:14 am
Slip of the Tongue
July 5th, 2005 at 10:45 am
the last thing anyone would ever want to have to listen to is group of nlp practitioners defending the meta-model……….unless they were played by morgan freedman, tim robbins and tom cruise on a triple esspresso.
July 5th, 2005 at 11:05 am
I also suspect more people would be willing to listen to Mr. Boucher if he was a little more careful with the strong language. And I say that as someone who agrees with his position of ignorance far more than Freeman’s position of elightenment.
The same goes for Lupabitch, of course. It takes two to exchange ideas, and two to fight. I think more is learned through the former than the latter. Both sides here need to start looking at themselves, in my opinion.
July 5th, 2005 at 12:20 pm
self-evaluation is the key. but to suggest that people aren`t to speak unless certain guidelines and standards are met is repressive. tim has done tremendous things here, with patience, tolerance and certainly a voluminous desire to get to the bottom of the occult( though, i fear it won`t be when he succeeds.) oh, and by the way, the bit in the parentheses was HUMOUR. we all choose to come here. it is tim`s space. we can agree and disagree and enjoyably say shit, piss, fuck…etc. they are words. we are the ones that give them meaning. surprisingly to some, the offended are doing it to themselves. yes, not unlike masturbation. i use the odd epithet to dislodge some of the rigidity in people`s attachment to useless preconceptions. it allows the opportunity to find better ways to live. the questions asked here are part of the process. we can grow together or we can argue semantics.
imagine if walter cronkite would say bugger my old boots, just every now and then, some smiles would occur.
July 5th, 2005 at 12:23 pm
oh, and i disagree that it takes two to fight. some manage quite well on thier own.:-*
July 5th, 2005 at 12:49 pm
dang, i go out of town for one weekend and all hell breaks loose around here!
fwiw, i actually have experience with ritual chaos magick, & imo here’s one of the things about it. chaos magick is, as magick goes, really easy! i don’t mean it doesn’t take any work, but compared with other initiatory traditions, it’s super-simple to come up w/a sigil, charge it (via masturbation or otherwise) and ‘zap off’ a spell. it doesn’t require years of training or levels of initiation or expensive swords & incense & whatnot; at it’s most essential level, it’s basically a matter of putting pen to paper, jerking off, and then attempting the sometimes easy, sometimes mind-blowingly difficult task of forgetting your sigil. nonetheless, a lot of the people i’ve known who are into this stuff do it because it’s an easy way to accumulate ‘power,’ be it real or imagined. hell, peter carroll says as much in liber kaos (taken out of context, carroll can come across as a super-obnoxious asshole).
let’s face the facts: magick is not something typically performed by jocks. most people currently interested in it were more than likely on the receiving end of the bully-stick at some point or another (i know i was) and got into it to try to maintain some kind of personal power in a society that punishes the intelligent in favor of the physical. as a consequence, a good number of practitioners of magickal traditions, but (i’ve noticed) especially chaos magickians can be incredibly defensive and holier-than-thou. i think that comes out a lot in online discussion; people get all defensive. oh, and another thing– wait, i’ll make a blog post on this.
July 5th, 2005 at 12:55 pm
anyone who implies that it’s possible to “abuse” the freedom of speech, and then goes so far as to suggest that someone should be BEATEN for something he’s SAID, clearly does not understand or appreciate free speech. it’s not possible to abuse free speech — that’s the ESSENCE OF IT.
don’t fuck with free speech. without free speech you can’t do shit.
people can and should say whatever the fuck they want.
what’s next, thought crime?
July 5th, 2005 at 1:15 pm
fucking right laura jane.
July 5th, 2005 at 1:16 pm
What this reminds me of is on usenet alt.wicca where all the wiccans are constantly bickering and cliquing and threatening each other and hexing each other da da da
Mostly cause they’re caught up in these really low level ego games like getting pissed that someone dissed them
or whatever
That’s the time to get off of usenet
exit the conversation
If you’re so angry that someone called you a goofball or whatever that your mind is running away with plans to put the psychick whammy on them or whatever
then unplug your computer for the day and go swimming or get stoned or something
I got mugged a couple of months ago. ANd in the back of my backpack I had a hawkbill serrated knife
And if you know how to use those things apparently you can be playing jumprope with someone’s intestines before they even realize what’s happened
but here’s the thing
I have no idea how to use it and couldn’t even reach it during the mugging
instead i distracte dthe guy and got outta there
THANK GOD i didn’t use the knife. For one thing I would have either gotten killed or killed someone over almost nothing
For another like my martial arts teacher said: a knife is not for waving around, intimidating or impressing. If you pull it, the goal is to use it ASAP and move on to the next target
If you aren’t prepared to kill, don’t pull the knife! Its that simple.
Magic is the same I think. If yer gonna do something, do it, don’t talk about it, don’t wave it around, just do it.
In fact I would venture to say that anyone who is really GOOD at magic is probably not writing arguing about it on the internet, instead they are:
- helping to fix marriages
- helping people get jobs
- helping people recover from illness
- defending people from bullies
…. and making a pretty penny for their services too.
That’s why communities have shamen, not be loose cannons who gets their feathers ruffled at the drop of a dime and have to be soothed, but to serve the tribe.
July 5th, 2005 at 1:44 pm
that list above is part of what i do and, yes i get paid well. and i`m feeling better now,than i have in years.
i am grateful for your soul that you didn`t stick that guy rev. warriors suffer most in war. the dead are dead.
i read once that if you`re going to carry a knife, make sure it`s a small one. just in case you have to swallow it. egos are like knives.
i post here because it`s a place for inquiry. one where there is some scolarship greater than mine, so that i may learn. i have been to other blogs….nlp, hypnosis, pschiatry, etc., most are full of ego-bound list-spouters without care for dialog. people here read(listen) and think and respond from scolarship and a sense of inclusion.
i disagree about all the good magicians, by the way. i can`t always be talking with clients.
July 5th, 2005 at 2:01 pm
i read once that if you`re going to carry a knife, make sure it`s a small one. just in case you have to swallow it. egos are like knives.
———————
LOL that’s a great one!
———————-
i disagree about all the good magicians, by the way. i can`t always be talking with clients.
———————-
I was trying to make a point. You are hypnotherapist yes? My shrink charges a lot too but he has helped me so much its worth it. We all gotta eat.
OTOH he has a private life too. Shamen I know also have private lives.
Serving a community is like serving the spirits or serving clients, if you burn out your no good to anyone.
July 5th, 2005 at 2:36 pm
i am honoured to be able to be of help to people. it is a form of magic that flows through us all. i`m glad your shrink helps you. i gather his ears work better than his prescription pad.
i think, on the spiritual path, the stalking of intent, the first casualty is ego. the measure of the injury incurred is the amount of laughter it releases.
July 5th, 2005 at 2:56 pm
great insights, guys. for some reason i find myself quoting waking life a lot lately.. anyway i’m reminded of the part where the guy is talking about how everyone is born with a pack of crayons, and some people get the 8 pack and some people get the 16 pack.. but really it doesn’t matter who has the fancier colors, it’s what you DO with the crayons you have.
July 5th, 2005 at 2:57 pm
i`m glad your shrink helps you. i gather his ears work better than his prescription pad.
——————
LOL, i don’t belive in that crap. I saw a psychiatrist once when I was in my early 20s and wound up throwing the scrip out the car window on the way home. I think a lot of psychiatric drugs are used to suppress legitimate anxieties and trains of inquiry.
I’m not offering a blanket statement here some people do have chemical inbalances and may need’em. But I knew deep down that all I really needed was to talk. SO I found someone who came from that POV (talking, dreams, hypnosis, etc) instead.
——————————
i think, on the spiritual path, the stalking of intent, the first casualty is ego.
———————————-
Seems like a lot of that going around lately!
July 5th, 2005 at 3:07 pm
we are all the walking wounded, for the most part. the healing is the good bit. i could imagine a veritable ticker-tape parade of thrown prescriptions, all fluttering down, when the tribe comes together. laughing. for no reason.
July 5th, 2005 at 4:50 pm
I definitely agree with that. But the tribe won’t come together or heal when insults are being thrown around like pennies.
It seems obvious to me that enough people on both sides here want to fight, not discuss, because they’ve been attacked (not an inaccurate perception), and so they’re so focused on what the other side is saying they don’t see how they’re antagonizing each other.
If enough people want to fight, I shut up and let them. I can’t stop yin and yang.
Peace, if such a thing exists.
July 5th, 2005 at 5:04 pm
I certainly want to fight, and I’m obviously antagonizing on purpose. I don’t think there’s any harm in it, as I don’t actually wish anybody any harm. Sometimes really heated emotions reveal a lot more truths to me than sitting back and just taking it all in.
July 5th, 2005 at 5:38 pm
Human: did you ever post that moontime stuff over at RI? you totally should.
July 5th, 2005 at 10:08 pm
OK, one more time:
“Furthermore, I find it AMAZING that Freeman goes to such lengths to tell me how I haven’t read enough books, and then on his own website where he’s “safe” admits he hasn’t even read the book that I was talking about!”
I wasn’t talking about your opinion of the book, I was talking about your ignorant comments on ritual magic. There are two ways in which you could become competent to state the opinion you stated: practice magic extensively yourself, which you disclaimed, or failing that, at least read enough about it so that you’re not talking out your ass. Hence the book recommendations. If you do not understand the distinctions I am making here, then I really have been wasting my time.
I do not recall giving permission for you to republish my picture. Remove it.
– Freeman
July 5th, 2005 at 10:11 pm
human? Says:
“July 5th, 2005 at 9:43 am
Freeman….
are minors present during your sex magick rituals?”
Ab-so-fucking-lutely not, and you are an asshole of the first water for even asking.
July 5th, 2005 at 10:18 pm
That’s funny Freeman, because I don’t recall asking your permission to publish the picture. But in the interest of fairness, I’m scrambled your face so as to make it unrecognizable.
July 5th, 2005 at 10:29 pm
lucky for you, Tim has called for a cease fire, so i will go about responding to you in a civilized manner.
your “Temple” seems to advocate ritual sex magick, and also emphatically states “sacred joys of life to be celebrated, not hidden away as though it were shameful.” In fact, it seems to be a mantra repeated several times while looking at your works….
so, like i pointed out above, when you then suggest that minors can join your Temple, i believe that leaves you open to being asked whether or not minors are involved in your ritual sex magick (being that the sex magick makes up a good chunk of your “Beliefs” page.
you do have a disclaimer, consenting adults etc… but you then express the need to explore the “darker aspects”… and when investigating occult ritual sex magic, one of the darker aspects ive come across is the ritual abuse of children.
perhaps it may be a good idea for you to NOT allow minors into your Temple, then folks like me wouldnt have to ask you such difficult questions.
Your response to my line of questions, quite frankly, indicates to me that you are not being honest about something, a simple “No” would have been sufficiant. and ill leave you with that…..
one
human?
July 6th, 2005 at 12:18 pm
perhaps it may be a good idea for you to NOT allow minors into your Temple, then folks like me wouldnt have to ask you such difficult questions
———————
good idea
July 6th, 2005 at 12:37 pm
Yeah that seems totally legit as an argument
July 7th, 2005 at 3:00 pm
[…] se soi-disant chaos mages turned out in force to bash him with (basically) this criticism: if you don’t practice magic, if you aren’t a practicing occultist, then y […]