![[tmbchr]™](/journal/popocculture-blog-logo.jpg){kind=logo}
WTF Is Magick?
Some people have each other’s backs. Some people don’t. A reader named Z. doesn’t like when I write about magick. “Human” however has my back.
Z. writes:
let’s face it, when you write about magick, and you yourself admit to never having tried it, you come off sounding like a guy who’s only ever watched and read pornography, but who’s never had sex, and yet, he’s ranting on and on about it, trying to make heads or tails of it, at the same time not wanting to get into the practical side of it all because it’s too “sticky” or something.
Way to suggest I’ve never had sex. What a clever rhetorical jab! Did you ever consider the possibility that somebody might be exploring something because they are FUCKING INTERESTED in it?
“Human” responded much better though:
i call bullshit.
wtf IS magick????
quite frankly, you come off as inept rather than adept. all this low level ritual gimmick crap is fucking ridiculous.
magic is thinking and then manifesting. just the fact that youve been drawn to this blog & felt compeled to post, proves Tim’s proficiancy IMO.
god forbid one would decide to not pigeonhole themselves into some absurd pseudo druidic dogma…. or worse…
that you think Tim shouldnt write about magick says to me you have very little knowledge of what magic truly is..
Now you can take or leave that as you see fit. But I tend to agree. Anyway, I guess the thing I fail to really see is WHY would I want to get involved in ritual magick in the first place? What the hell is the big deal? It doesn’t seem to make anybody happier or more successful, or fucking less argumentative. It just seems to puff the average practitioner up into thinking they are better than Gandalf himself. And I have no fucking patience for that. Everybody is sitting here crying about the words I write, rather than trying to actually engage me on what the hell magick really is and what anybody would want to get into it for (with a couple exceptions). And don’t just tell me it’s indescribable. Obviously some of it is. That line might work when you’re talking to your D&D buddies. But come on. Give me your best shot. I’m putting myself out there, so you do the same. Or else shut the hell up and find something else to complain about. Isn’t there a fucking war going on somewhere, or a benefit concert for globalization?
- Secular Magick
- Magick Without Religion
- Simple Definition of Chaos Magick?
- Occult Vs. Magick
- Magick, a Distraction?
- Prev: “So it’s mechanical?”
- Next: Ceasefire!
July 5th, 2005 at 6:20 am
The ritual is a real physical engagement in the magickal doing. It’s about immersion. When you do a magickal ritual you’re sort-of carving out a subjective/schitzophrenic space where reality is not weaved so tightly, and crazy shit can happen. The ritual has power, because it puts the practitioner in a different head-space.
If you look at a ritual from far away, it may just look like some doofus playing pretend, but you’re not seeing the ritual–it takes place in a mythic-subjective space inside the perceptions of the one who is engaging in it.
I know you wrote something about how ritual and sacrament in religion is a way of engaging the myth/story-system personally–I think that says a lot about what I’m trying to get at.
July 5th, 2005 at 7:32 am
One of the differences between magick and science is that magickal results are experienced subjectively. This is why many of the best (wisest?) magicians understand that blind adherence to dogma is anti-thetical to magick. Instead it is recommended that the practicioner discover what works best for him at his own pace.
For some people ceremonial magick “works” best, for some, Wicca, for others sigil magick.
I always thought Tim was a “magician” just because of the way that he willed that he become an occult investigator. In fact, I use that as an example of effective magick.
I am beginning to practice ritual magick (using Kraig’s Modern Magick - excellent book!) so I understand its value - it’s just not valuable to everyone.
Just like people have different learning styles they also have different styles of “causing change in conformance with Will.” This is probably based on differences in life experiences and genetic predispositions.
July 5th, 2005 at 8:44 am
Way to fucking extrapolate!
Why would I want to suggest that you never had sex? Do you intentionally take things the wrong way just to rile things up a bit, or what?
It’s actually a metaphor, not a “rhetorical jab,” which means that I was simply comparing talking about one thing to talking about another thing, both of which actually needs to be experienced to come fully to terms with. Just like talking about jumping off a bridge doesn’t amount to actually doing it.
And that was actually the entire point of it, not to infer that you’re a virgin.
If it interests you, do it; if it doesn’t, don’t do it. Simple as that. What is the big fucking deal here?
By the way, since the topic was “WTF Is Magick,” here are some definitions. Just for clarity’s sake, see what some people define it as, and so on.
July 5th, 2005 at 8:54 am
I think any suggestion that you “shouldn’t” write about anything is idiotic. Of course you should.
At the same time I think that at some point experitmenting with the actual practice might be beneficial to your writings and/or understanding.
As to what magic REALLY is… well, that’s quite the question. I always go back to these basic ideas here http://www.spiralnature.com/magick/models.html when I want to touch base and get back to basics.
My current working model is a mishmosh of a lot of those ideas.
Ritual magic is one path to enact some of the aspects of the various definitions.
HOW it works ties directly into WHAT you think magic is…
Maybe the ritual part of ritual magic short circuits the logical brain and taps into the emotional state [like, perhaps, NLP] or the subconscious to enact behavioral change… resulting in the desired result so that, observably, means the magic ‘worked’.
Maybe the ritual activates the mind on some quantum level that interacts with the “objective” world… bringing about success.
Maybe the ritual actually calls forth transdimensional entities that intercede on your behalf…
But regardless of what REALLY happens I have to think, on some level, that actually doing the ritual/experiment/action and then incorporating those results into your opinions has got to have validity. And if nothing else, gives your opinions somewhat more breadth.
Not to say that you NEED to do rituals, RIGHT NOW, or what you have to say is worthless. That’s an insane idea. But I think at some point, given your interests or inclinations, you’ll probably want to give it a go at at some point. Or not.
But a lot of folks do think that the HOW doesn’t really matter. That it just works. Period. Do the experiment, observe the results. This will lead you to a truer understanding than observing from the outside. I do kinda get that.
But any idea of what magic REALLY is gets all entangled with our linguistic frames and verbal concepts, which may or may not apply to “reality”. Which is why so many say it’s indescribable. The idea that it need be ‘describable’ is a demand that reality conform to the logical mind, which may not be “true” or applicable. Though I tend to agree with you when you say that some of it is describable.
July 5th, 2005 at 9:58 am
the back bone of magick as it’s usually practiced today is self-hypnosis, method acting, guided meditation, and directed prayer.
quite frankly I’ve met practicing hypnotherapists who would smoke pretty much any ‘chaos magus’. it’s that mantra of results results results taken seriously instead used to justify laziness.
and yes I’m trying to be provocative. got my boyz back yo!
July 5th, 2005 at 10:23 am
Just out of pure curiosity, how could being results oriented possibly be contrived as justifying laziness?
July 5th, 2005 at 10:31 am
nlp and hypnotherapy are both magic. my clients ask me how what we`re experiencing during a session works (they`re asking from a newtonian perspective, i guess.) and i honestly say that i have no idea. i doesn`t stop it working though, and i think the mystery enances the experience. if a ritual leads you into a space where you are more effective in your life, then that`s the magic. say the word magic over and over and it starts to lose meaning.
i think thats one of the most fascinating of the subtle experiences we can feel. to lose context linguisticly. it`s the shift from one state of awareness to another. any transcript of an nlp/hypnosis session is a ritual of magic.
the practicing magician is using the same methods i use in sessions on him or herself or possibly with partners or groups. d&d works in similar terms. so do movies. our neurology is predisposed to trance and magical states. i know i have accidentally astral projected. i was following some of my mother`s yoga breathing and not really paying attention, i was just being a kid, and similarly to a word losing meaning with repitition, what i was percieving lost context, it went flat and close. then for a moment or two i was out (?) and in a jolt back in again. WTF, i thought. and it set me on a life of trying to figure this all out. 40 years later i have no more answers but some ideas that seem to work consistantly, so i help people begin thier own journey. maybe that makes me a shaman.i don`t know.
i had a friend put forth an interesting concept. imagine if an alien came down into your body and mind and realised that it could do anything. what would it do? what could you imagine it would do?
July 5th, 2005 at 1:35 pm
WHY would I want to get involved in ritual magick in the first place? What the hell is the big deal? It doesn’t seem to make anybody happier or more successful, or fucking less argumentative.
————————-
I dont know, I think it has made me happier, more successful and less argumentative. But also confused, emotional and turbulent. Just like anything.
Why would someone chose to get into gnosticism? Happiness is not the best reason to everything. Sometimes you may be seeking some deeper sort of fulfillment.
OTOH from a different POV traditional forms of shamanism are not something people just “get into”, they are literally called by the spirits, they are chosen to do it. WHich means that they have a responsibility to those spirits to do things in the right way, and are also responsible to everyone they work with.
This is an important distinction: the marketplace of ideas is filled with models.
You got the wiccan things, people talk about solitary, eclectic etc. ABout dabblers and fluffbunnies. You got chaos mages or whatever experimenting and doing things on their own for fun (not that there’s anything wrong with that).
But in traditional tribal communities there is no such thing as a “solitary eclectic”. WHy should the tribe give any food to some guy who jacks off over sigils or takes bath in rose petals to attract a mate? If you can’t pull your weight, you’re out, unless you can ensure the success of the hunt or help someone get pregnant or make sure the crops grow yer just so much dead weight.
TO my mind the magic people do now - I dunno, it loses a lot in the translation from one culture to another. One is about survival another is about play. Its like the difference between a serious martial art and Tae Bo.
July 5th, 2005 at 1:44 pm
Fwa!
http://www.snant.com/fp/archives/what-is-your-magick-for/
July 5th, 2005 at 2:30 pm
and that you recognise the events as part of a pattern that you created, or you joined in on part way, or something else entirely. it is envigorating, nontheless.
about being born to do things as part of the tribe, once you get out of the city things become clearer as to what our role in the tribe is. ever since gutenburg invented the printing press, we have been in the process of destroying the tribe. the literate, rugged individual is the product of books. the computer draws us back to sitting around the camp fire and telling stories rich in archetype and metaphor. and casting spells that work………..
July 5th, 2005 at 3:44 pm
Disclaimer: I’ve been involved in magical practice for about 25 years now: Witchcraft, Golden Dawn, OTO, XMk, and most significantly A.’.A.’., albeit in a vein more akin to Bennett and Achad than AC.
Magic, for me, is the intersective play between psychology and physics.
I think there is a profound benefit to spending the time to “sort your elements out” and take responsibility for your own emotions, intellect, passions/anger, and physicality/sexual response. That doesn’t have to occur in the context of ritual, but there are proven techniques in there that work for a goodly number of *healthy* people. In this respect it is analogous to psychoanalysis.
This is not to say that the overwhelming majority of practitioners are not obese lunatic BDSM SCA Trekkies - just that some individuals, about 100 years ago, had a lot of time on their hands and worked out a few practical applications to Renaissance Hermetics. Many of their techniques are equally valid today.
There is a tremendous amount of noise in the signal, however, a discerning mind with a good background in formal logic should be able to differentiate wheat from chaff, and apply accordingly.
Philosophically, however, I’m personally more inclined to side with Jeremy in his Zen post: most of it is just a distraction from the Work, and you’re likely better off keepin’ yo’ eyes on the prize, as it were.
July 5th, 2005 at 3:54 pm
I don`t get why magick is such a hard thing to explain. I can see your minds burning the rubber as many of you beat around the bush trying to explain it. Here is my definition of magick…(two words)
Manifesting Intent!
There you go, that is magic in two easy to understand words. Look up the etymology of those words if they are still too dificult to grasp…lol
July 5th, 2005 at 4:52 pm
well as i tried to explain (in a roundabout way) in my blog post, i think why you get into magick depends on what you want to do with it. do you want to gain money and power and zap the bullies who pick on you? if so, there are *far* easier ways than ritual magick. hell, walk down to your local botanica and pick up a spray-can of ‘evil be gone;’ in the right state of mind, it’d work just as well as any hour-long ritual with robes and circles and barbrous names and such. or, do you want to achieve some kind of enlightenment? this is the most valid reason i can think of for practicing ritual magick– that it can, through time and practice, allow one to reach the heights of the limitless light (or close to it, anyhow). it’s an incredibly interesting and applicable theoretical model, if nothing else.
well, sure, nobody in the tribe is gonna give food to people who do this, but they *will* give food to an honest-to-god shaman who can heal people and guide people through initiatory stages of their own. and that’s the thing that bugs me about “everyone can do magic” thinking– picking up peter carroll’s books and utilizing the stuff therein will work, definitely, but it’s like picking up a violin and teaching one’s self by experimenting, or by using one book. you’ll make lots of screechy noises and will most likely arrive at one or two recognizable tunes, maybe even some of your own creation, but you’ll *never* get into a symphony that way (unless you’re just a natural, which is also possible with magick).
July 5th, 2005 at 5:07 pm
That’s funny, because that’s how I taught myself to play guitar. But then, I wasn’t trying to join a symphony or anything. I just wanted to play and enjoy it for what it was. I never had some kind of goal in mind about being a rockstar or anything.
July 5th, 2005 at 5:11 pm
well that’s what i’m sayin’– if someone just wants to pick up magick and cast spells and read tarot cards and whatnot, big deal & no harm done! if that’s why they enjoy it, great! i, for one, LOVE learning about the Qabbalah, but i’ve certainly never been instructed by a rabbi and would never win a gematria contest. but, if someone’s doing it to attain ‘enlightenment,’ imo they’d be better served by an actual initiatory experience.
July 5th, 2005 at 5:15 pm
hehe. do they actually have gematria contests?
July 5th, 2005 at 5:28 pm
heh, they should, it would be awesome. they could do a game show like ‘family feud’: “You have twenty five seconds to name a correspondence for each the following number values: 425, 19, 67, 22, 344. Each correct answer is worth $1000. Answer all correspondences correctly and we’ll advance you up to Tifaret!”
July 5th, 2005 at 5:37 pm
if so, there are *far* easier ways than ritual magick. hell, walk down to your local botanica and pick up a spray-can of ‘evil be gone;’ in the right state of mind, it’d work just as well as any hour-long ritual with robes and circles and barbrous names and such
—————
Yeah but isn’t using “evil be gone” itself a ritual?
i don’t see the difference i guess, why is Western magic concerned “ritual” but chinese or afro-carribean is not
July 5th, 2005 at 5:55 pm
sure, they’re both ritual, but ‘evil be gone’ is less complicated– just point the can & spray, as opposed to making a sigil out of a statement of intent and charging it, or going through the trouble of searching the arbatel for just the right spirit to invoke on the fifth hour of the second tueday after the full moon when jupiter is in aries.
anyone who thinks chinese or afro-carribean magick isn’t ritual is very very very mistaken! i use ‘western’ ritual magick to discuss just that– western ritual magick. in making the distinction i’m trying to acknowledge the existence of non-eurocentric ritual magick that is no less effective but simply takes a different form. hell, even zen works best with some ritual aspects . . . .
July 5th, 2005 at 6:18 pm
OK just curious thanks
I have found that there are lot of similarities between the Taoist and afro-carribean systems
both are based on nature and use systems of divination, ancestor worship, etc that are very effective
OTOH my ignorance of Thelema-Goetia-Kaballah-Enochian-et al is near total
July 6th, 2005 at 2:58 am
Some are suburban soccer Moms.
Most unfortunately, they do exist. (usually begun by the feloow who corrects everyone’s pronunciation to “Kah-bah-LAH‘)
Many similarities again with Afro-carribean trad.s, interestingly enough. A lot of Lukumi and Palo ppl at Lodge and vice-versa. My husband studied Lukumi before he found Thelema/RM.
July 6th, 2005 at 12:06 pm
Thought you might find this interesting.
Why Chaos Magicians Are Such Assholes