14 Reader Responses

1. laura jane Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 12:56 pm

   this is really interesting/pertinent:

   http://www.kundalini-teacher.com/awakening/shamn.html

2. Fell Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 2:24 pm

   Not to bicker semantics, but I read an interesting piece on the differences between sorcerers, mystics, and shamans. I believe it was put forth by everyone’s favourite, Julius Evola, so I won’t even attempt to pretend to put it down as eloquently as he generally does. I’ll just drop some verbal diarrhea here:

   Essentially, Evola saw sorcerers as persons that strive to become gods. To walk with the gods, to explore all corners and reaches of the planes of consciousness and be able to walk among them. By doing so, As above, so below becomes very pertinent to how one lives their life and interacts with these multiple realities. Magic is an interaction with differing aspects of reality and consciousness, often allowing aspect of so-called reality (the illusion thereof) to be manipulated. Anyone that has experience with deep trances, ceremonial magic, or psychedelics such as dimethyl-tryptamine, Salvia divinorum, mushrooms, LSD, peyote, et cetera, can attest to seeing alternative patterns and methods of interaction with consciousness and, subsequently, “reality.” The sorcerer knows that with the experienced she or he becomes armed with, wisdom of these other planes and methods, she or he can explore their life just as much on the abstract level of a purely spiritual plane of existence as they can on Malkuth, the manifest realm. Wage a war here or there, it doesn’t matter. What matters is calculating the effects your actions have. And that only comes with wisdom.

   Wisdom = Intelligence + Experience

   Mystics, on the other hand, look to co-exist with the divine. As the Buddhist looks towards the Unmanifest, and perhaps too will the sorcerer and shaman, the mystic’s sole purpose is one of dharma: the shortest path. The challenges inherent in actually having to ponder paradox, in order to short-circuit one’s understandings, are phenomenally difficult. Albeit very similar in many ways to the sorcerer, the mystic looks to co-exist with the overall pattern and order of the Universe. There is an unspeakable beauty they find, beyond human notions of good and evil, ugliness, chaos, order, et cetera. But, interestingly, Peter J. Carroll pointed out in Liber Null & Psychonaut that he found very little difficult in psychically manipulating and magically affecting Buddhists he encountered in Tibet. Even with slight wisps of his will from afar, he could affect a Buddhist monk’s decisions in crossing the road and moving about the town.

   In giving up their free will to simply co-exist, the mystic becomes an observer with no intent whatsoever. They are simply the eyes and ears of the Universe, in attempts to cleanse themselves of any particular sensory inhibitions that may have come from their upbringings or ego. They are pure organs of the Universe.

   Lastly, shamans fall somewhere between. While not as actively involved in the affliction of free will upon maya, shamans find along their journeys of inner-space the places of the gods. Shamans are typically characterised as living as an ambassador between society and the outskirts of nature. In today’s world, the same is most likely true. Someone that integrates and understands the working machinations of the social machine, but also in touch enough to be a loner, solemn in their lives, and perhaps even a touch schizophrenic? They co-ordinate with the gods and the manifest realm. If their society falls into bad favour with the gods the shaman has come to wrap symbolic façades around, his personal mythology or that of society’s, she or he attempts to bring a balance to the purposes of the gods, deus ex machina, and will attempt to bring about the changes and offerings necessary in society to maintain that balance. Or, if society veers one way, perhaps pursuing some route of probability away from its karmic progression, the shaman will act as a conduit to deities to fundamentally alter the nature of progression and of the gods’ desires, so turning favour to zigging rather than zagging, perhaps.

   In this age where information is prevalent in the developed nations, more and more magic will be integrated with everyday life. It is the way of things. Transhumanism comes, and hopefully with it a return to libertarianism and responsibility of the individual. It may not be called magic, for I see more magic in the work of marketing firms and the S/M scene that I do in many occult circles, but it will come. With it will be new definitions, explorations, and methods of attaining spirituality.

   For those to truly embrace the potential of magic, there are these three routes. It’s like a game, see how far you can take it. Most don’t get very far. But for those that do, I doubt they’re spending much time bragging about their accomplishments.

   I would be happy that we’re entering into an age of magic, an age of beauty and information and possibly more free will than has been attained by individuals in a social context, sans aboriginees, in the past two or three millennia.

3. rhondda Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 2:53 pm

   Laura Jane Thanks for posting that site. I was worried about what was happening to me and wow, there were some answers.
   The wisdom of the heart knows no bounds.
   Tim, your site, as usual, gets the imagination going. Keep asking your questions, please. They are very helpful.

4. rev max Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 3:02 pm

   That is, certain members of the tribe would experience a severe natural initiation of some kind, whether it was a near death experience, an intense illness, mental breakdown, or visitation by spirits. Because of this experience, the would-be shaman was more or less cast outside of the normal world of the tribe, and pretty much the only thing that could be done was for another shaman to take them under their wing and train them in the mysteries.

   ——————-

   that still happens

   ——————

   Rarely do we see people who experience an “authentic” initiation (whatever that is) who then become our modern shamans.

   ————————-

   they’re there but i think mainstream american culture does not know about or see them because they are operating on the fringes of society or else in the context of various ethnic subcultures. These people are often quite secretive too - not like Lynn ANdrews who is basically the OPPOSITE of a real shaman. It’s not about self-promotion and self-inflation its about helping people with tehir real lives not narcisssim.

   ——————————

   The vast majority of people get into it simply because they are curious or because they’ve “always been interested in it” or possibly because they think it’s gonna be cool and give them some kind of special powers.

   ———————

   well there are plenty of weekend warrior types who contantly go to all of these shamanic retreats and seminars and stuff and buy dreamcatchers and airbrushed t-shirts of wolves and whatnot - i put that in the same cateory as all of Ye Olde Celtic WIccans

   michael harner knows what shamanism is though. its a technique you can learn about - you rattle or drum and go into a trance and then have some sort of experience that can have various degrees of intensity from lucid dreaming to OOBE.

   Its not tied to any particular culture. But a lot of cultures do have traditional religions which have kept many of these practices in - maybe not 100% pure but still pretty pure-ish form. But it takes a lot of effort to find the real thing. There’s a very high noise to signal ratio. ANd anyway not everyone is called to do that.

   I can strongly recommend the book Spiritual Cleansings and Psychic Defenses (Paperback) by RObert Laremy he actually goes into a lot of these issues in great depth in a way that jibed w. my own experience

   —————————-

   People who do seem to experience genuine initiation (maybe something along the order of a UFO abduction, for argument’s sake) are generally seen as basically crazy, and we don’t pay them a lot of serious attention. We also don’t accept them on their own terms, and we try to slot their experiences into a mundane framework, rather than accepting it as shamanism or magic or whatever.

   —————–

   I feel sorry for the UFO abductees because the framework they have to understand their experiences in seems very paranoia-making and not particularly empowering.

   I’m not saying it doesn’t happen - I’m sure it does. But in a different culture someone like that would just go see a witchdoctor and say “I’m being attacked by evil spirits” and then they would have a way to take control of the situation again.

   I also feel sorry for the Native Americans because their culture has been so plundered and hijacked by people who are empty crystal wearing navel-gazing goofballs and con artists

   If I were a Native American the next middle-age housewife from sedona who approached me wanting to talk about the aliens or the plaeidians or whatever, i would scalp’em

   no, just kidding

   A lot of the shit we do have in the culture now I think is basically empty narcissism

   I try not to judge other people’s paths either but:

   scientology, fundamentalist montheism: mind control slave philosophies

   wicca satanism and most new age: just garbage and a waste of time

   african traditional, taoism, zen, buddhism, gnosticism: getting warmer i think

   what i am seeking is genuine experience of the spirit. That is something radical and deeply felt that manifests itself in dreams a change of attitude, loosing up, laughing but also (paradoxically) greater responsibility and gentlenes with others a desire to help

   not a new wardrobe, fashions, retreats, seminars, 12 CDs for only $395, subscription to our newsletter, new jargon, pentancle necklaces, etc.

   A REAL sweatlodge is a confrontation with death.

   The REAL Kali is not a big cozy lap to sit in and never have to grow up.

   I think when the element of danger was removed from traditional paragdigms to make them palatable to memebers of the AMerican Middle Class it encouraged people to see what they wanted to see and not what could actually help them grow.

   ———————-

   1. Is simple curiosity or interest a worthwhile reason to get into this stuff? Should you start practicing magic even if you haven’t been “called” to do so? Is there any danger in that?

   ——————————–

   i think its a good reason, an indication of a basic disposition. You do what you are, right? But it can be dangerous, definitely

   ————————-
   2. What constitutes an “authentic” shamanic initiation experience? How can you tell if you’ve had one?

   —————————–

   i think you can learn a lot from dreams. if they are recurring with consistent themes and visits from dead relatives then i think its definitely an indication of something important. Then thats when you need to slow down and try to hold the energy and grapple with the personal meaning and pray for direction. DOn’t rush off to join something, then your awakening might just get hijacked.

   ————————
   3. Some people talk about how since the old traditions have mostly died off, the gods or spirits nowadays choose people for spontaneous initiation in order to rekindle the old ways. Is there any truth to this or is it simple intellectual wankery to cover up the fact that you’ve not had a “true” initiation and you’re really just curious?

   ————————–

   well it really depends on what “old ways” doesn’t it? FOr example the best known “old way” is wicca and that is not much older than my grandad

   a lot of people don’t want to do REAL traditional things because they are committed to a postmodern framework of understanding that emphasizes individuality, consumerism, shallow commitment, disposability, etc.

   In the traditional framework of shamanic understanding the spirits call people and the person starts searching and then the spirits direct them to a teacher

   the teacher could be for a short time or it could be a lifelong thing

   OTOH grant morrison is the ultimate apostle of chaos magick right? doesn’t seem to have hurt him at all. He wasn’t suppose dto get involved in a traditional shamanic path because what he did instead is right for HIM.

   EVeryone has a differnet destiny, also different stages of understanding and questioning I think.

   Some people are involve in magic who shouldn’t be. Others aren’t involved in it and really should be. It seems to be a mixed bag.

   ———————–

   4. What happens to shamans who are truly and honestly called, but who refuse the path?

   I think that they are probably miserable!

5. Fell Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 3:49 pm

   Rev max, as always, I enjoy the gems you drop here and there. Well observed:

   I think when the element of danger was removed from traditional paradigms to make them palatable to members of the American Middle Class, it encouraged people to see what they wanted to see and not what could actually help them grow.

6. Occult Investigator Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 3:51 pm

   Max, would you mind terribly using the blockquote tag around your quoted passages? it just makes everything a little simpler to read. Basically, all you have to do is this:

   Make a line break before and after the text you want to be quoted. Then highlight it and hit “b-quote” above.

   And you’re done

7. rev max Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 4:00 pm

   Max, would you mind terribly using the blockquote tag around your quoted passages? it just makes everything a little simpler to read. Basically, all you have to do is this:

   Make a line break before and after the text you want to be quoted. Then highlight it and hit “b-quote” above.

   And you’re done

   Wel,l I’ve never had such an impertinent request in all my 9 lives.

   Get thee behind me, Net Nanny!

8. alistair Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 4:21 pm

   i read a book about a fireman who went to south america on a kayak trip. he got sucked into an underground cave and nearly drowned. upon returning to work he discovered that he could help people stabilise injuries at accident scenes by talking to them in a way that they could relax and deal with the shock and allow the body to reduce blood flow to injures areas etc.
   the near death experience jolts one into a level of awareness whereby things like being able to help people heal is possible.
   if one goes throught the initiation and doesn`t pick up the torch afterwards, the calling will persist, i can assure you of that.
   how can you tell if you`ve had an authentic experience? well, plainly, you know if you have brushed death. the smell of it`s breath is enough to convince you.
   i ignored the smell for years and incedents kept happening.
   is simple curiosity enough? i don`t know, i`ve never had the luxury, but i would hazzard to guess, no.
   i don`t think there are gods or spirits choosing now or ever. i think the experiences have always been ours. culture has changed. that explains some it. and that people who speak of these things in polite company are stigmatised, and worse.
   i think most wizards, shamans, and seers today are medicated or in jail or walking the streets or fighting thier own voice.
   the homeostasis of the hive culture that we live in as robots has no need for this inqiury. it prefers that we continue to work to complete whatever the fuck it is we are supposed to be in such a hurry to build. and if we die at our work station there will be room for the next drone.

9. prunesquallor Says:
   July 6th, 2005 at 4:36 pm

   I became interested in esoteric and mystical topics after my first mushrooms. My first time was the most intense by far, it was the end of the world. I needed to find a metaphysic that could accomodate that experience, because my previous, mechanistic worldview was now very obviously very wrong.

   And now I “know something” that I didn’t before, but that is impossible to express in any words or images. The void, the black sun, the Logos, are all indirect analogies, but there is nothing that does not ultimately reflect and symbolize it.

   The one thing wears a thousand masks. I do not know if that is an “initiation,” but many mystic writings, that once seemed nonsensical to me, seem now quite clear in their meaning and plain-spoken, albiet in a way that is very difficult to explain to most people.

10. laura jane Says:
    July 6th, 2005 at 5:32 pm

    hey tim, what do you mean hit “b quote”? i don’t see any “b quote”.

    is this because i’m using safari ?

11. laura jane Says:
    July 6th, 2005 at 5:35 pm

    alistair, well put.

12. Occult Investigator Says:
    July 6th, 2005 at 5:44 pm

    stupid safari. maybe. i have a line of boxes above the comment area that allow you to use the tags

13. Haeresis Says:
    July 6th, 2005 at 8:08 pm

    And now I “know something” that I didn’t before, but that is impossible to express in any words or images. The void, the black sun, the Logos, are all indirect analogies, but there is nothing that does not ultimately reflect and symbolize it.

    The one thing wears a thousand masks. I do not know if that is an “initiation,” but many mystic writings, that once seemed nonsensical to me, seem now quite clear in their meaning and plain-spoken, albiet in a way that is very difficult to explain to most people.

    I hear that.

14. alistair Says:
    July 6th, 2005 at 9:09 pm

    and i shouldn`t have used the term”near death experience” that is a trance term. it makes you go to semantic sleep. i meant that when you are shocked by an experience so profoundly that when you recover the world has changed, then you have been initiated. colours are different, food tastes different, cats and dogs look and behave differently, t.v. is a blur. and the things that your ears deliver to your brain have no comparison to the things you heard before. and i realised that t.s.eliot was full of shit. we are not hollow, we are full of universes. trillions of star clusters that each go on forever. awesome, breath-taking. right inside each and every one of us. right now.