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Transhumanism: Excuse for Euthanasia?
I love this comment from Jerky about transhumanism:
Maybe transhumanism — the idea that we’ll eventually be able to “upload” ourselves into machines, and thus attain immortality — is an empty promise meant to salve the dread of a certain variety of thanatophobic pseudo-intellectual by tricking them into submitting to what will be, in reality, involuntary suicide.
“Okay, so we’ll just hook you up to this here machine, and when we switch it on, your entire conscioussness will be transfered into this here OTHER machine!”
“Cool! Will there be chicks?”
“Oh yeah! It’ll be indistinguishable from reality, except there will be no rejection. Total VR5 versimilitude. And you’ll be immortal! You’ll be able to sex up Sailor Moon and those Tatu girls… FOREVER!”
“Dude… what are you waiting for? Pull that switch!”
“Alright. May God forgive me.”
“What?”
ZAAAP!!!
For some reason, that seems like the most plausible (and hilarious) explanation I’ve ever heard on this topic.
July 10th, 2005 at 2:05 pm
Solyent Green is made out of transhumanists! It’s transhumanists!!!
July 10th, 2005 at 2:06 pm
Man, it’s just too perfect. They could be all like “JOURNEY TO THE STARS” and then WHOMP!!
July 10th, 2005 at 2:11 pm
Wait, isn’t that part of the plot of that new Scarlett Johannsen movie? Like she wins a “cruise” or something but it’s actually euthanasia? But then they escape a la Logan’s Run.
Anyway, I want to put together some fake advertisements for this service. Talk about hilarious
July 10th, 2005 at 2:24 pm
Cutting edge Australian sci-fi author Greg Egan has a strong afinity for the transhumanist project, and the most (inadvertantly) terrifying portrayal of the process I’ve ever seen is in his overly ambitious novel, Diaspora. Here is the sequence:
“Yatima sprang to vis feet and backed away, then fired the Introdus into Orlando. … Waves of nanoware were sweeping through Orlando’s body, shutting down nerves and sealing off blood vessels to minimise the shock of invasion, leaving a moist pink residue on the rubble as flesh was read then cannibalised for energy. Within seconds, all the waves converged to form a grey mask over his face, which bored down to the skull and then ate right through it. The shrinking core of nanoware spat fluid and steam, reading and encoding crucial synaptic properties, compressing the brain into an ever tighter description of itself, discarding redundancies as waste. Inoshiro stooped down and picked up the end product: a crystaline sphere, a molecular memory containing a snapshot of everything Orlando had been.”
July 10th, 2005 at 2:35 pm
holy jesus!
July 10th, 2005 at 2:41 pm
Fake adverts would be cool. Remember the ones put out by the makers of Gattaca? They were pretty controversial. “You want the perfect child. We can give it to you.”
PS - The Island seems to be a remake of The Clonus Horror, which the Mystery Science Theater 3000 boys lampooned so hilariously in the twilight of their Sci-Fi Channel days.
July 10th, 2005 at 3:37 pm
Logan’s Run and Soylent Green — totally right on! My girlfriend sent me a link to this: which totally reminds me of the death chambers in Soylent Green . . .
July 10th, 2005 at 4:16 pm
I find it curious that for individuals so interested in “enlightenment” that you can embrace a fear so adamently, not some hippie blasting power plants or pro-life supporters blowing away doctors that work in abortion clinics. This is just a verbal assault of ideas you seem to be uncomfortable with. We seem to be fearing what we’re not understanding, which in itself is understandable because something of this nature is, of course, almost impossible to understand to those locked into a pattern of thinking moulded by Western culture as it is: consumerism, democracy, and public school systems.
Change on this scale is most usually out of the hands of the people. It is what it is. To claim we’ve such a grand knowledge of human consciousness to be able to claim to know what will take place with the next wave of human interaction with cybernetics is to claim a fairly hard-headed arrogance.
ps — All the power to Yatima. That was way cooler than just outright shooting someone. You guys seem to sympathize too much with Orlando. The beauty of life is that you get to choose which character you’re going to be.
July 10th, 2005 at 4:37 pm
Who says I’m interested in enlightenment? Second of all, nobody’s asking you to agree with us. Just because we don’t agree with you doesn’t indicate some kind of deep misunderstanding of the concept or of how the universe works. That’s just fucking preposterous as an argument. We don’t need to like it. You like it. That’s fine. We all understand that.
July 10th, 2005 at 4:53 pm
if it ever gets to the point where we can upload consciousness then there will be a lineup of nihilists waiting to volunteer. let`s try a cat, or a bison or a fish or a spider first. what`s wrong with pushing the envelope of consciousness within the skin bag first? i`m kind of partial to mine. i like the fragility. imagine how mercinary we`ll become as a species if we become digital?
July 10th, 2005 at 5:11 pm
Dear Fell:
My description of the Egan passage as “terrifying” was in relation to his evocative depiction of the physical process, NOT the remote and fanciful prospect of our one day being able to exteriorize consciousness. As I noted in my post, Egan is pro-transhumanism.
So… fear? Hardly.
Cynicism? I suppose.
Suspicion? You bet your ass.
July 10th, 2005 at 6:03 pm
I don’t like it or dislike it anymore than I like or dislike the fact that there are McDonald’s franchises on more street corners than churches. It’s the way it is. In such, I don’t care much one way or the other, I just see it was the way it is:
Senses special: The art of seeing without sight
Is nanotechnology “the next GM”?
‘Bionic eye’ may help reverse blindness
Sony patent takes first step towards real-life Matrix
Gamers to rule their own virtual worlds
et al.
Nor have I claimed to have any more insight into the Universe than you or Jerky on this matter, but my comment was more in retort to your reaction to something unknown. I may not know more about it than anyone else here, but I try to only ridicule the things I am familiar with.
I maintain a sense of wonder and awe in everything that I have never tried, and the things I will never get to.
July 10th, 2005 at 7:04 pm
that’s sweet fell. tim, jerky, its really not funny - after the chosen few get uploaded and they’re all having multiple orgasms together in the hall of records, you’ll be the ones left behind to suffer the tribulation of the cyborgs! repent now! plug in! drop out!
July 10th, 2005 at 9:08 pm
the death of humans as a species isn`t funny. the upload will be the quickening, the eschaton or the rapture. interesting how we have always had the concept in our literature. it sits between possibility and probability.
July 10th, 2005 at 9:24 pm
I think what you are trying to say is: “The death of humans as a sepcies isn’t funny to me.”
July 10th, 2005 at 10:59 pm
actually to be precise this is all taking on the appearance of being not funny to me, but i try not to get hung up on the warbed-wire fence of semantics like some latter day steve mcqueen running from the korzebski stormtroopers with thier linguistic burp guns. i am merely pointing out that transhumanists are humourle…….. i mean if we up load it`s goodbye to walking in the rain and football matches and meeting another skinbag for the first time. the digital versions have always seemed just and only that. versions. i`ve become used to me, just recently, and i`d like to experience this for a while longer, until the inevitable upload……..(which is what seems likely, to me.)
July 11th, 2005 at 12:20 am
i’m not too keen on the idea of giving up my walks in the rain and encounters with new skinbags. i like things like coffee and soap and petting dogs and swinging on tireswings and dancing around my kitchen. that stuff isn’t replaceable, and for me it’s a huge part of what makes life worth living. i’d rather be a mortal skinbag.
anyway i wonder what would happen after we got uploaded?.. i’m going to be trite here and make another anime reference — in ghost in the shell 2 you have all these androids going nuts and committing suicide. i wouldn’t be surprised if the consciousness rebelled against that kind of inorganic confinement.. who knows though — this is a huge topic.
July 11th, 2005 at 12:28 am
My personal guestimate is that it’ll be a mix of all things — the body retinue to the digital, which will bring even more perspective, knowledge, and experience to the fray. It’s like when everyone thought that “video killed the radio star,” yet we have radio, television, video games, cell phones, mobile media, the internet, all of this on top of volleyball, lacrosse, bocce, badminton, cycling, camping, fucking, and picking one’s nose.
This is just my opinion, but all I see of transhumanism is an expansion of choice. Essentially, I see it as a libertarian sort of expansion, upon which it places more responsibility for who one is.
Vurt, by Jeff Noon, touches on some interesting ideas of how reality begins to break down in nature (not unline the the last novel of Grant Morrison’s The Invisibles), where humanity has both evolved and perhaps devolved into this odd and wonderful world where “dream” has become, for lack of better terms, as “objectively” relative as what we deem reality.
Like I said, I don’t agree or disagree. It’s not in my power to do so, so it is a waste of my energies. I just try to understand it as much as possible as I watch it blossom upon us.
There will invariably be those that fear and censure it. That, too, is inevitable. As is any great change in our development as a species.
July 11th, 2005 at 12:36 am
from a REALLY big-picture perspective i think it makes sense as a (potential) evolutionary step… and i recognize that when i consider such a possibility it could just be my cells and mitochondria that are screaming NO.. the body wishes to preserve itself.. organic matter wants to survive. anyway for the time being i’m inextricably bound to those cells, so i’ll side with them.
July 11th, 2005 at 3:38 am
just say no to the implantable microchip. its not fear. it makes sense.
IMO, cell phones have made the human race in general (as far as i can tell), stupid.
planning is a thing of the past, idiots walk the streets talking to themselves & bumping into everything…. it doesnt feel to me to be progression…
rather than advancing into a new reality, it feels more like a disconnect from any reality whatsoever… it certainly hasnt spawned any “happy” people… folks just seem to be more confused than ever, and now they have little flashing gadgets so they can remain constantly, mutually, confused.
i suppose the interenet works on that level as well, but the internet is a whole next story… every technology has its ups and downs, but i think that the mass proliferation of cellular phones is a good example that mass use of technology is not nessecarily always a good thing.
one
human?
July 11th, 2005 at 7:24 am
i`m afraid to become a robot. i like to be conscious of my actions. cell phones make people dangerous behind the wheel. especially those tiny women in giant suvs. now having said that i`m niether sexist nor sizeist. i like suvs. i own one myself.transhumanism does seem like nihilism. hentai seems like a form of fantasy entertainment done exremely well, from an antiseptic perspective. the upload does seem to be a suicide though………. a fuck you to society and friends for not being more embracing. it a giant turning away.
July 11th, 2005 at 9:21 am
There’s a passage in the bible that asks, “Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” The question shows how to measure a prophet. What are the results of his actions? If they are not good, the prophet himself is false. I think the same question should be asked when thinking of the future of technology. Our technology is the fruit of our culture. Our culture is the root of our technology. The two cannot be separated. So is the root rotten? Is the culture corrupt? I think the answer is yes. In the long run it cannot produce good fruit.
Our technology is based on greed, exploitation, and death. Without a pyramid-shaped societal hierarchy supported by a wide base of workers who are kept ignorant and enslaved, there would be no capstone of technological achievement. Directly beneath this capstone are the powerful men who control the technology, and below them are the scientists who develop it. The will of the powerful men is forged by greed. The knowledge of the scientists is based on death: the death of each previous generation which is required for new theories to be accepted. The productivity of the people is based on exploitation of the planet’s natural resources. What good can come of this situation?
In the transhumanist utopia, the past is ignored. The pedigree of our technology is non-existent in their rhetoric. Once our technology becomes sufficiently advanced they think it will surely save us, and who will care about the past then? Who will care about the river of filth and shit that carried us to the party? We will live forever, pure conscious currents running through infinitely transfigurable forms. We are expected to accept technology at face value, like fiat currency. The dollar has no past, it just “is”. There was never another way. Consciousness containers of the future will have no past, either. They will just “be”. Technology grows on trees, don’t you know.
July 11th, 2005 at 12:08 pm
Oddly, I find science moving more in unison with Eastern (and Western) esoteric thought. The last issue of New Scientist’s cover story was called Free Will or Reality, One of these is an illusion, and countless other sources that are tackling this topic. I continue to see the use of personally biased adjectives when approaching discussions, which seems to point towards personal biases rather than researched opinion.
I must have read different books and articles on transhumanism than the rest of you, because I don’t think of us as becoming “robots.”
Have you ever met or read the writings of any CEOs or “people on top”? Chances are, they’re brilliant and worked fucking hard to get there. They manage entire micro-economices, are accountable for their staff, from hundreds to thousands, and have an impact in a nation’s economy. That’s stress. Scientists become scientists out of a passion for knowledge and learning. It’s not for the money. At least, all of the people I know in the sciences got into it for those reasons. It’s not like scientists get paid that much.
And when you say the will of powerful men is forged by greed, this brings up two interesting points: 1) That their will is apparently more profound than your own, or else you would’ve toppled the Evil Empire by now, no? And 2) that I must question your fear of the dollar and whether, again I ask, if you’re involved and have direct relations with any of these so-called “powerful men”? Becuase if you don’t, and you don’t know many executives, and you’re not involved in any sort of debate or direct work with, then how the hell do you know what the motives are of all of these powerful men and women. Especially if you’re going to make such a vast summary of ALL of them.
In case you hadn’t noticed, money is the unit of exchange that humanity has adopted for the most part. Sure there are bads and goods involved with it, but again that is totally dependant upon your personal point of view. You’re criticism seems to be fueling a propaganda machine, painting the image of an evildoer who may or may not even exist.
It’s not much different than me saying All dirty niggers eat watermelons.
This whole thread seems to be catering to people’s fears and prejudism, at least in my eyes.
As for raping Mother Earth, there is more rainforest on the planet at this time than there ever has been in history, according to Disinformation sources. And since we’ve only been acting harshly for about a century and a half, which is really just a fucking blink of an eye in the lifespan of Earth, as technology improves in light of economically-minded societies, we shall improve our living conditions in accordance to nature. Again, it just seems to be the way things go.
I think you’re giving mankind way too much credit here in light of the power of the planet.
July 11th, 2005 at 1:37 pm
i’m really surprised nobody’s referenced ran’s latest essay on transhumanism. here’s an awesome quote:
July 11th, 2005 at 5:38 pm
Fell’s comments weren’t directed at me, but I felt like taking a stab at them, anyway.
I have met a few VIPs in my day, and read more “management literature” than I care to remember. And you’re wrong. More often than not, they’re arrogant, bellicose egomaniacs who end up “tripping over their own dicks” as my sainted grandmother used to say. And the books they produce are usually for shit.
In your haste to be condescending, you stumble into a nest of logical fallacies. Here’s a list of fallacies to avoid, so that you can become a more convincing pseudo-intellectual:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies#A_list_of_fallacies
Read newspapers much? Open your fucking eyes much?
You’re kidding, right? I mean, you’re only pretending to be this insufferably obnoxious… right?
The above makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever, and not just because you wrote “you’re” where “your” should be.
What about the clean niggers, Fell? What do THEY get to eat, you fucking retard?!
You got prejudism in your eyes? Damn! Next time you’re sucking some random CEO’s cock, you should probably wear safety goggles.
According to not-made-up sources: In 1800, there were 2.9 billion hectares of tropical forest worldwide. There are 1.5 billion hectares of tropical forest remaining. Between 1960-1990, 445 million hectares of tropical forest were cleared. Asia lost almost a third of its tropical forest cover between 1960-1980 — the world’s highest rate of forest clearance. Almost 90% of West Africa’s rainforest has been destroyed.
And I think you’re the living embodiment of the saying “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”
July 11th, 2005 at 6:30 pm
Thanks for the backup, Jerky.
July 11th, 2005 at 6:42 pm
Oh damn! When I posted this, I never expected the conversation to generate such passion on both sides. That just makes me want to continue it more, so I will soon. I promise.
July 11th, 2005 at 6:57 pm
here’s my two cents from long, long ago:
http://www.snant.com/fp/archives/trans-young-humanism/
July 11th, 2005 at 6:58 pm
Hehe. I guess not much else to say. It’s come down to opinion and bias. I agree with Jerky on the points of the rainforest, I should’ve compared numbers overall and I don’t personally support deforestation. But it’s not something I involve myself in.
The rest of it was just stabs at me, pretty much… and CEOs.
:-)
July 12th, 2005 at 10:40 am
it has been my personal experience that business owners are shaped by the movement of thier business, from inventory to shifting markets to employee issues to goverment regulations. they do tend to become bland and slightly cruel as a result. but no more or less than the rest of the population. they just have more access to power. we do tend to imprint our own bias onto issues and make them dance before us. that is the filter through which we look at the world. and logical fallacies help that trip. ahh, to be human.
and the first networked conciousness will be, by definition, mad. that`s why i`m suspicious, fearful, etc.
July 12th, 2005 at 1:41 pm
See, now that is a response I can respect.