What else is lacking?

Jack added some useful thoughts to continue the debate over organizing disparate [...]

It need not be one big building that everybody goes to on Sunday or Moonday and reads from one unified bible and sings some songs and let some old Pagan windbag go on and on about how we are here to honor the mother.

I think a more modern approach would not be far from what we are doing right here right now - we’ve got community and support and like mindedness, and we obviously were able to put aside differences and agree on a few things.

What else is lacking?

I may or may not be the Devil’s advocate here, but doesn’t that sound a bit like someone caving in to terrorists?

I’m not talking about the ‘broom closet’ here, I’m talking about the tendency for groups of people coming together to share/debate.form opinions, and get involved socially. Social ties are restraints, and its hard to have honest practice if one’s ego is involved, as happens time after time after time. I’m not saying, don’t tell people you’re a magician, I’m saying, don’t risk creating a church. The more that happens, the more it tends to be about people’s pride, people are misled by ridiculous dogmatic arguments about technique, etc.

as to the whole ‘keep silent’ dictum, i never took that to mean ’shut up about this stuff.’ rather, i see it more as an admonition to be careful what you say and to whom. but, i also see it as a call for humility, an admission that even the adept doesn’t know everything there is to know.

but doesn’t that sound a bit like someone caving in to terrorists?

Ah, I never get tired of comparing things to terrorists. But yeah, you’re right, it does seem like just taking your ball and going home in one respect. But in other respects, sometimes I feel like the more I say, the less right it really is. But fuck it, that’s life. I’m just sorting it out, and where would I be if I didn’t have anybody else to share it with or knock out a few teeth occasionally. I personally don’t plan on shutting up any time soon (even if I do see the wisdom in it).

There’s an old adage in magick that addresses the issue: keep silent. For years I roled my eyes at that, thinking it was a silly superstition, but after seeing one “occult society” after another go down in flames, I realized it’s really the only innoculation against group think and accumulating dogma.

I may or may not be the Devil’s advocate here, but doesn’t that sound a bit like someone caving in to terrorists?

Furthermore, with each witchburning, seeds of martyrdom were scattered for a stronger phoenix to rise from, and hence, we are stronger today, by numbers if not by works (and that has yet to be determined, being in the cornfield still and all) than ever before.

Also (and this is not D’s Advocate by any means), think on the fact that the World Wide Web is just now cranking out it’s first real full-grown batch of fresh adepts. It’s taken about 10 years to generate this immense and powerfully interconnected wave that is just now emerging, and I wonder if there were ever a time when this many folks started glowing all at the same time, and were at least aware of each other, if not in direct contact.

It’s still nascent. Let’s see what happens with this many metahackers nailing the system, right?

I’m realy of two minds on this, but I think it takes a really extraordinary thinker to proceed without any teachers, whether they’re human or ancient books. On the other hand, working within a system may close off other avenues of exploration. Our fundamentalist can’t, for example, explore alternate ideas about lucifer, if he belongs to a church.

There’s an old adage in magick that addresses the issue: keep silent. For years I roled my eyes at that, thinking it was a silly superstition, but after seeing one “occult society” after another go down in flames, I realized it’s really the only innoculation against group think and accumulating dogma.

In the end, it’s the group and not the theology that’s the problem.

At some point in the past there would have been a self-taught brain surgeon, right?

Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. Plus doesn’t Thomas Kuhn say in that book that often the most significant advances in a field come from someone who’s not really in that field?

A man I know called himself “self-educated” and was one of the most credulous people I know. His education was a mishmash of fact, outdated theories, wild speculations, and outright hoaxes, all of which he believed to be Truth.

This is exactly what I was getting at in regards to the previous post on conspiracy theory usually reflecting self-directed education by people who aren’t especially great at it, and dont fully understand the techniques. How do we “reach” people like that and teach them how to self-educate?

“Everything I need to Know I Taught Myself.”

Jack, is that available online?

one must develop one`s own field because then one can always be right.

Alistair, I didn’t see anybody else doing what I’m doing when I got started, and that’s precisely why I did this site. This site is me carving out my own niche and self-educating along the way. The awesome thing about self-education is that you can leave paths and records for other people to do the same.

it’s a policy to ONLY hire those who have taught themselves

Scott, that’s incredible and brilliant. I used to have to interview people for tech instructor positions at my old company. The college comp sci kids were some of the worst possible candidates. Everybody else there taught themselves.

I wonder if the ability to measure the worth of a particular source is something that’s difficult to learn for oneself.

WIlliam Upski Wimsatt was a pretty big influence on me thinking about it enough to write at all on the subject. I recommend his writings in the book “No More Prisons”. No occult by any means, but powerful stuff, both inspiring and effective.

I think this topic is really situation sensitive. For instance, I taught myself to play the guitar, but I still mostly kind of suck at it. That doesn’t really matter, since I only play for fun and to impress girls. If I ever wanted to play professionally–start a band or something–I would probably go get some lessons.

Whether or not you should get training from an outside source depends on many different variables such as your goals, the degree of technicality involved, the amount of time and money you’re willing to invest, your own mental strengths and weaknesses..ect.

We do hire Comp Sci graduates, but usually only ones who’ve been out interacting with the corporate world a bit. So, in our IT department, self-taught is better.