Comments on: The Essential Human Brand http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/ public domain playground. friendly entities welcome. Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:22:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Occult Investigator » Zen Disinformation Agents http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4417 Occult Investigator » Zen Disinformation Agents Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:03:35 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4417 [...] t is. And does this somehow tie into what I’ve been talking about in relation to the Essential Human Brand? It seems like it must. Great fuel for discussion, [...] [...] t is. And does this somehow tie into what I’ve been talking about in relation to the Essential Human Brand? It seems like it must. Great fuel for discussion, [...]

]]> By: alistair http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4280 alistair Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:03:18 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4280 this is one of those occasions where i really dislike the limits of language. i would never pretend to have insight into what wilber meant by anything he says. polythiesm, to me seems to be a fragmented approach to monotheism. instead of god having different characteristics or emotions, polythiesim brings in rigid elemental gods to represent the different abilities that one god provides. the polythiestic approach could be seen as being more accessable. a plug and play theology as opposed to a dos-based, more codified way of doing things. just a thought. this is one of those occasions where i really dislike the limits of language. i would never pretend to have insight into what wilber meant by anything he says. polythiesm, to me seems to be a fragmented approach to monotheism. instead of god having different characteristics or emotions, polythiesim brings in rigid elemental gods to represent the different abilities that one god provides. the polythiestic approach could be seen as being more accessable. a plug and play theology as opposed to a dos-based, more codified way of doing things.
just a thought.

]]> By: alistair http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4271 alistair Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:29:21 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4271 i think that what wilber was getting at is if a path is easy then we don`t get involved enough. we don`t do the leg work needed. like taking a blackbelt in karate or learning to play the guitar well enough to play bach or malmsteen. it takes years to develop the fine motors skills to play giutar well and the brain needs to adjust to new ways of thinking. i think that what wilber was getting at is if a path is easy then we don`t get involved enough. we don`t do the leg work needed. like taking a blackbelt in karate or learning to play the guitar well enough to play bach or malmsteen. it takes years to develop the fine motors skills to play giutar well and the brain needs to adjust to new ways of thinking.

]]> By: Occult Investigator http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4269 Occult Investigator Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:21:38 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4269 <blockquote>the only problem is that saying it does not help at all, they are too ‘fuzzy’, and contain no explanation as to what they actually involve</blockquote> Well, do you think if they did have an up front explanation that they would be so popular? Seems rather unlikely. Alistair, I don't really get why he'd say that polytheism is lazy or that it's all laid out in front of you. If anything, it seems more complex and confusing than monotheism

the only problem is that saying it does not help at all, they are too ‘fuzzy’, and contain no explanation as to what they actually involve

Well, do you think if they did have an up front explanation that they would be so popular? Seems rather unlikely.

Alistair, I don’t really get why he’d say that polytheism is lazy or that it’s all laid out in front of you. If anything, it seems more complex and confusing than monotheism

]]> By: Nenad Ristic http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4262 Nenad Ristic Mon, 01 Aug 2005 06:08:18 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4262 PErsonally, I think that all the paths are fundamentally simple, but it taqkes years or decades of hard work for all of us to realise that. To put it another way, I think that saying that 'you need to accept Jesus into your heart" (or achvie oneness, or do what thou wilt, or.... I think they are all pretty much the same) is a true statement, the only problem is that saying it does not help at all, they are too 'fuzzy', and contain no explanation as to what they actually involve PErsonally, I think that all the paths are fundamentally simple, but it taqkes years or decades of hard work for all of us to realise that.

To put it another way, I think that saying that ‘you need to accept Jesus into your heart” (or achvie oneness, or do what thou wilt, or…. I think they are all pretty much the same) is a true statement, the only problem is that saying it does not help at all, they are too ‘fuzzy’, and contain no explanation as to what they actually involve

]]> By: alistair http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4256 alistair Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:37:43 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4256 wilber said about polytheism, it`s lazymans religion because everything is laid out in front of you. there is no seeking answers and no years of initaition. similar to the proselytising jesus freaks,"just let him into your heart". easy peasy. and, yes, it`s what people want. people don`t like to have to think. they want to go to sleep. maybe it`s a natural by product of human existance to snooze. maybe insanity is being awake all day. wilber said about polytheism, it`s lazymans religion because everything is laid out in front of you. there is no seeking answers and no years of initaition. similar to the proselytising jesus freaks,”just let him into your heart”. easy peasy. and, yes, it`s what people want. people don`t like to have to think. they want to go to sleep. maybe it`s a natural by product of human existance to snooze. maybe insanity is being awake all day.

]]> By: Occult Investigator http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4254 Occult Investigator Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:19:38 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4254 I know I've used Evangelicals as a rhetorical punching bag for a long time myself, but is that really the case? Not being one myself, my main exposure to them happens to be through the local Christian television (Cornerstone/CBN) and it seems to me that a great deal of their time and effort is spent trying to get people to accept Jesus into their hearts. Almost so much focus is placed on it, that little else seems to be even talked about. Which is weird, but maybe from the outside, I'm getting a really inaccurate picture of what it's like. Maybe it <em>does</em> require hard work and devotion... but then, life in general seems to require that. So maybe it's not about religion so much. What I've always wanted to know is: for people who do accept Jesus into their heart, what happens after that? The carrot these preachers seem to hold out is that all your problems disappear or you're at least able to handle them. Maybe the thing they're really selling though is not really a solution at all, but simply a sense of belonging... <blockquote>Wicca is extremely popular because it’s simple and accessible… “do what thou will, and harm none”. The rituals and observances (if one even bothers with those) are simple and non-compulsory. And you get to call yourself a witch- what could be better than that?</blockquote> Maybe that's really all most people want: is to know what to call themselves, and to be given the permission of actually using a label and jumping into that social role. Maybe the thing then is just to create a really good story for people to be a part of and to get to act out via ritual - religious or secular. <blockquote>Well, it can be used in ways that are potentially good… for the person making the sale! I don’t think it’s of that much advantage to the individual who wants to make progress in said area</blockquote> I'm really curious about this too. I would tend to agree with what you said as my first reaction, but I've gotten in the habit of stopping to analyze my first reactions though because maybe there's something that I'm missing as a result. I know I’ve used Evangelicals as a rhetorical punching bag for a long time myself, but is that really the case? Not being one myself, my main exposure to them happens to be through the local Christian television (Cornerstone/CBN) and it seems to me that a great deal of their time and effort is spent trying to get people to accept Jesus into their hearts. Almost so much focus is placed on it, that little else seems to be even talked about. Which is weird, but maybe from the outside, I’m getting a really inaccurate picture of what it’s like. Maybe it does require hard work and devotion… but then, life in general seems to require that. So maybe it’s not about religion so much. What I’ve always wanted to know is: for people who do accept Jesus into their heart, what happens after that? The carrot these preachers seem to hold out is that all your problems disappear or you’re at least able to handle them.

Maybe the thing they’re really selling though is not really a solution at all, but simply a sense of belonging…

Wicca is extremely popular because it’s simple and accessible… “do what thou will, and harm none”. The rituals and observances (if one even bothers with those) are simple and non-compulsory. And you get to call yourself a witch- what could be better than that?

Maybe that’s really all most people want: is to know what to call themselves, and to be given the permission of actually using a label and jumping into that social role. Maybe the thing then is just to create a really good story for people to be a part of and to get to act out via ritual - religious or secular.

Well, it can be used in ways that are potentially good… for the person making the sale! I don’t think it’s of that much advantage to the individual who wants to make progress in said area

I’m really curious about this too. I would tend to agree with what you said as my first reaction, but I’ve gotten in the habit of stopping to analyze my first reactions though because maybe there’s something that I’m missing as a result.

]]> By: Nicq MacDonald http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4252 Nicq MacDonald Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:32:04 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4252 Well, it can be used in ways that are potentially good... for the person making the sale! I don't think it's of that much advantage to the individual who wants to make progress in said area, whether that is attaining enlightenment or making millions of dollars, except perhaps as a way of "writing off" that part of life in order to concentrate on another (for instance, the Evangelical Christian who doesn't have time to worry about his soul and sucks down a few comforting "formulas" so that he can get on with what really matters to him, whether that's building his business, raising his family, etc.) Well, it can be used in ways that are potentially good… for the person making the sale! I don’t think it’s of that much advantage to the individual who wants to make progress in said area, whether that is attaining enlightenment or making millions of dollars, except perhaps as a way of “writing off” that part of life in order to concentrate on another (for instance, the Evangelical Christian who doesn’t have time to worry about his soul and sucks down a few comforting “formulas” so that he can get on with what really matters to him, whether that’s building his business, raising his family, etc.)

]]> By: Occult Investigator http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4250 Occult Investigator Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:04:30 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4250 Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. It seems like if you want to make a million dollars, that the best thing to do would be to take a complicated system that requires real dedication and years of tough work, and boil it down into a super-simple formula that can be pitched in a thirty second space, and all it requires is one simple decision for the customer/convert to make. Is that a bad thing or can it be used in ways which are potentially good? Yeah, I know exactly what you’re saying. It seems like if you want to make a million dollars, that the best thing to do would be to take a complicated system that requires real dedication and years of tough work, and boil it down into a super-simple formula that can be pitched in a thirty second space, and all it requires is one simple decision for the customer/convert to make.

Is that a bad thing or can it be used in ways which are potentially good?

]]> By: Nicq MacDonald http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/comment-page-1/#comment-4249 Nicq MacDonald Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:37:07 +0000 http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/30/the-essential-human-brand/#comment-4249 Great observations. Now, I can't help but wonder about another part of this formula- the difficulty of the path. Evangelical Christianity, for instance, has such great appeal because it's simple- accept Jesus, be saved. The moral requirements are typically fairly straightforward and concrete, as long as one doesn't look too deeply (I love to confront Fundies arguing against "situational ethics" with self-defense and just war theory; it also seems to be the only time that they begin to prefer the NRSV over the KJV...) On the other hand, Catholicism and Mainline Protestantism are struggling these days because they don't offer simple solutions- both are theologically complex and often obscure about what they're offering. Or, for instance, take a look at "magickal" paths. Wicca is extremely popular because it's simple and accessible... "do what thou will, and harm none". The rituals and observances (if one even bothers with those) are simple and non-compulsory. And you get to call yourself a witch- what could be better than that? On the other hand, Crowley's A.'.A.'. system is the other extreme. Progressing through the degrees, if done properly, is arduous. You have to train your body to the point where you can stay still for an hour with a cup of water filled to the brim balanced on your skull without spilling a drop. You have to design and construct magickal implements. You have to do actual research to design your rituals, eventually culminating in the invocation of the HGA. You have to engage in extensive self-inquiry, learn to completely empty your mind, maintain unbroken concentration, and examine the results of your work. Just earning the first few degrees is an impressive accomplishment. Becoming an adept is work that can take decades. Successfully crossing the abyss? The number of people who have made 8=3, Magister Templi, without going spectacularly insane, can probably be counted on one hand, if that! (I'm not even sure about Crowley himself!) Both Wiccans and Scientific Illuminists are doing "magick"- but there is a tremendous difference between the two! People don't want to have to work. They don't want to have to struggle. They want someone else to do the job for them; someone else to go to the cross, hang from Yggdrasil, or go earn the doctorate. That's life. Great observations. Now, I can’t help but wonder about another part of this formula- the difficulty of the path. Evangelical Christianity, for instance, has such great appeal because it’s simple- accept Jesus, be saved. The moral requirements are typically fairly straightforward and concrete, as long as one doesn’t look too deeply (I love to confront Fundies arguing against “situational ethics” with self-defense and just war theory; it also seems to be the only time that they begin to prefer the NRSV over the KJV…) On the other hand, Catholicism and Mainline Protestantism are struggling these days because they don’t offer simple solutions- both are theologically complex and often obscure about what they’re offering.

Or, for instance, take a look at “magickal” paths. Wicca is extremely popular because it’s simple and accessible… “do what thou will, and harm none”. The rituals and observances (if one even bothers with those) are simple and non-compulsory. And you get to call yourself a witch- what could be better than that? On the other hand, Crowley’s A.’.A.’. system is the other extreme. Progressing through the degrees, if done properly, is arduous. You have to train your body to the point where you can stay still for an hour with a cup of water filled to the brim balanced on your skull without spilling a drop. You have to design and construct magickal implements. You have to do actual research to design your rituals, eventually culminating in the invocation of the HGA. You have to engage in extensive self-inquiry, learn to completely empty your mind, maintain unbroken concentration, and examine the results of your work. Just earning the first few degrees is an impressive accomplishment. Becoming an adept is work that can take decades. Successfully crossing the abyss? The number of people who have made 8=3, Magister Templi, without going spectacularly insane, can probably be counted on one hand, if that! (I’m not even sure about Crowley himself!)

Both Wiccans and Scientific Illuminists are doing “magick”- but there is a tremendous difference between the two!

People don’t want to have to work. They don’t want to have to struggle. They want someone else to do the job for them; someone else to go to the cross, hang from Yggdrasil, or go earn the doctorate. That’s life.

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