I received such a great comment from Carlos on my post about conspiracy theory as religion that I want to upgrade it to it’s own post in the hopes of triggering a monster discussion around it.
fuck facts. i think conspiracy theorists would more properly be called analysts, with an emphasis on the anal. tarantino is a bricoleur. that’s why he rocks. djs digging in the crates, so bricolage. i love that idea, it’s been my unconscious style all my life but i never knew i was doing it. so do i now want to fuck up kill bill by analysing the fuck out of it, documenting which 1970s films his ideas really came from? it has absolutely nothing to do with the story!
and you’re so right about the connections being key, although what i think most conspiracy theorists are looking for is something to make themselves feel important, and that’s why it’s like a religion, so fucking important…
“we’re doing the hard work, fighting the good fight, got the whole thing on tape, 110%, yea verily the world is a better place for our remarkable achievements.â€
yeah, way to hold down the block, gangsta.
“we don’t do the wacky stuff (rolls eyes), only the real stuff (stern forwn)â€
there it is again, the quest for the machine’s respect. softcocks. really, it’s a wacky fucking existence. go hard.
“oh we’ve got all the dirt. it’s documented. it’s real.â€
sfw? you’re living in the fucking matrix. nothing is proven. you don’t know shit about watergate, and even if you did it doesn’t change a fucking thing.
unless you mythologise. but the man’s got you thinking that that’s a bad thing so you stick to the facts. sucker, the devil’s in the details.
fuck keeping it real. keep it mythological. i suspect that myth, because it claims to be nothing but, is the only thing in this world that isn’t a complete sham.
honestly all this conspiracy theory stuff is retarded. let’s say we’re conspiracy hypothesists!! oh jesus, that will clear things up won’t it, and it doesn’t sound gay at all. just say the word hypothesis in a pub. go on.
conspiracy theory is a religion, and of the worst kind because it’s completely jackable, and has been jacked by charlatans and fools. because truth does not equal reality. remember at the end of the last temptation of christ, jesus is all like: but i didn’t die on the cross, it’s a lie. and paul says: shut up man, that has absolutely nothing to do with the story.
i’ve fucking had it with conspiracy theorists. from now on i’m going to be one of “history’s actors†sounds like more fun.
and all you “serious conspiracy theorists†can go and get fact.
Here’s a summary of my favorite points in this, along with a few tangents that this spawned for me:
- Facts are great, but where do facts get you? Even if you know the facts - and they are the real facts - then what are going to do with them? Eat them? Build a castle out of them? Use them to legally challenge the legitimacy of the government? GOOD FUCKING LUCK!
- Facts are only as good as the narrative interpretation in which they are framed. And there’s no other way to look at facts that to frame them into a narrative.
- There’s a difference between facts and Truth. Truth transcends facts.
- When conspiracy theorists try to claim that they aren’t into the weirdo off the deep end conspiracy theories, it’s exactly the same as when Wiccans get upset about being called Satanists.
- Just because the government tells you the facts about something like Watergate doesn’t mean those are necessarily the real facts. And furthermore, so what if something’s documented? Have you ever used Photoshop, video editing software or a word processing program? I could make you some documented facts you would(n’t) fucking believe.
And before anybody goes off half-cocked over this whole thing. Remember, I’m into conspiracy theory. I just think we need to figure out what we’re really doing with it, and what the real worth of it is culturally and individually. I’m making generalizations to shake loose facts and opinions that have become cracked and stiff. We gotta make way for new life and new ideas here (and everywhere).
- END -
ASSOCIATED CONTENT @TMBCHR (Auto-Generated)
- A Definition of Conspiracy Theory
- Conspiracy Theory, Parapolitics, Whining
- The Cowardice of Conspiracy
- Conspiracy Eats Itself
- Conspiracy Evangelism
35 Comments
Another way CT is like religion is that it requires certain “buy-in” dogma. Such as:
1. The mainstream media (MSM) can never be trusted, and anything that emanates from it is bogus, or, at most, suspect.
2. Anyone who is critical of someone’s pet theory is most likely “one of THEM” sent to disrupt and sow seeds of doubt. I can predict, almost to 100% accuracy, when the accusations that I’m an Illuminati Psyops Troll will begin because I’m critical of a fact or theory. It’s so pathetic.
3. The “need to believe” supplanting the acceptance of established facts — see my earlier comments about the latest “Bush and Blair Indicted” hysteria of Skolnick et al., which is currently spreading like an eruption of herpes across the Net’s more parapolitical forums. “I want it to be true, so it must be!”
Those precepts are as silly as anything issuing forth from the most rabid fundamentalist/biblical literalist — “The entire world is run by Satan! You can’t trust anyone but our particular church pastor, praise be the Lord!”
Forums in particular are more prone to hijacking, not by Illuminati Disinfo brigades, but by plain old mobs of dumbasses.
yeah, i hear alla that.
i think the bottom line is this: are you bring reactionary or are you making chioces? are you trying to overturn someone elses agenda or implement one of your own?
so much of the world is locked into acts of perception. there’s no way out of it short of enlightenment. rather than be the victum of someone else’s story, make your own story.
which is pretty much magick, which is pretty much why i like it.
carlos’s comments are frickin’ genius. they should be printed out and posted over the monitor of anyone who surfs the web doing ‘conspiracy research.’
here’s some devil’s advocacy for ya. there’s so much self-importance coming from some of these jokers that it makes me wanna puke. listen, folks– if you had *really* posted the ABSOLUTE TRUTH about some 2000 year old conspiracy of time-travelling reptile alien overlords who rule the world, and these overlord Bilderburger Bohemian Grovers *REALLY* gave two shits about what you’d discovered, you’d be so fucking dead so fucking fast. but you’re not, because absolute knowledge is impossible within the context of ‘conspiracy,’ and that means that you’re mythologizing, like it or not.
most “conspiracy theory” is simply the unfortunate denial of the solid fact that we will NEVER know what happens. we’ll NEVER know who plotted and executed 9-11. we’ll NEVER know whether the government is responsible for ufo abductions. we’ll NEVER know who shot jfk. ain’t gonna happen! so, since we’ll NEVER know these things, we create story-systems in which they are explained.
here’s a question for “conspiracists”: so?
what happens if your conspiracy theory is true? what if george bush and dick cheney are indeed shapeshifting reptiles who plotted every aspect of 9-11? are you gonna convice so many people that this is the TRUTH that they’ll rise up and overthrow the government? and what if they did? who would then take power, the democrats?
another aspect of conspiracy theory that makes it seem religious to me is that conspiracy theory only really affects the people who sit around and think about it. it has absolutely no bearing on the external world– it’s an internal process.
i’m always boggled by this aspect, too. on the one hand, anything the msm says is immediately suspect. on the other hand, more than half of the evidence for most ‘theories’ comes from the msm. which is it, ya’ll?
i get particularly annoyed with forums & try my best to avoid ‘em at all costs. i think you’re right about the ‘dumbass’ thing. for every brilliant poster there’re like two dozen of those ‘cassandras’ you had to deal with over in that one ri thread.
A great improvisational acting teacher here in NYC Michael Delaney is fond of saying: “Reality is your friend, but Truth is your Master.” In terms of spontaneous theater, ya wanna ground stuff in the real so people can go along for the ride with you and connect to an extent, but to get at bigger truths you gotta bend reality sometimes. Myth does that, too. The shit that’s really true is beyond words, but mythologizing gives us a means to approach it that isn’t possible when we stick to the facts. It’s like Plato giving his theory of the forms and then saying, this may not be true but something LIKE this is true.
The best CT writers like good ol’ dead Jim Keith use their research to show all the possible connections and that Something is goin’ on, but then in the end have to throw up their hands a bit and admit that there’s no way to say exactly what that Something is.
As far as the lust for being taken seriously or being perceived as legit, that one is difficult to address, because it is a basic human drive. We’re social animals and we want to be accepted by the tribe or pack (whichever one(s) we belong to) and that’s a challenge for most individuals at some point, whether into CT or not.
A myth that leads folks into finding their grounding within, thus allowing them to let go of the NEED to be believed or affirmed in an external way would be a good one.
And again, I think this is exactly what that infamous White House aide was quoted about in the NY Times when he said that they are history’s actors and we’re just left studying their actions. The fact is while we are busy studying like crazy, they are busy ACTING CRAZY.
Colonel Mustard is dead no matter who killed him, in what room and with what object.
U-S-A!
U-S-A!
U-S-A!
That’s exactly what I’m after! With gnosticism, with conspiracy theory. I think there’s some way to turn it into just that. But how?
That’s the zillion dollar (or consciousness) question, right? And eye think that various times there have been myths that do just that–but not for everyone. The mystery religions were doing SOMETHING that seemed to work in that direction as did the ancient philosophical schools–at least for some people. If we’re looking for a mass myth that can do the job, I don’t know if that can last because those who come into contact with any myth are not all in the same place emotionally, physically, economically–there are so many variables that can get in the way of getting a certain realization out of a given story, of perceiving it and then acting upon it in a freeing way. Could there be a formula of what that sort of freeing myth contains that individuals could then apply to create myths tailored to their circumstances and psyches that will benefit them within themselves and within the world? It feels like there must be and I suspect that’s what you were going after with the Biggie post’s criteria for gnosticism.
It’s also funny how a lot of the crazier CT theorists seem to really want to draw attention to themselves. But “real Bad Boys move in silence.” Damn…maybe Biggie was fronting for some secret gray robed Christians after all.
One thing people leave out when dealing with CT: If it turns out that the conspiracy is TRUE, and that we ARE in The Matrix, then there ARE things you can do to free yourself.
The emphasis is on “yourself”. You can’t persuade other people to follow your particular CT. Anyone who WOULD follow me based on my persuasive knowledge of JFK’s assassination is a fool.
Socrates said “Know Thyself” and that’s the only maxim in the world worth following. Therefore, let’s say Bush IS a lizard, or JFK was fucked in his neck wound by LBJ… what can I do about it?
Know myself, that’s what.
Can I bring down Babylon? Only for myself. It doesn’t mean going out into the woods and storing up arms, or starting a blog, or making cynical cmments on other people’s blogs. It means holding MYSELF accountable for my own actions.
It also means questioning others about THEIR beliefs– not destroying their beliefs, but causing them to question.
All of this is lost on people like Carlos, though, who make good points only to lose their credibility by saying things like “CT is retarded”. To quote the man himself, SFW if it’s retarded? You don’t call yourself a conspiracy theorist or hypothesist or hobbysist? Great. You deserve a medal. But your words sound angry and you offer no solutions, so what’s your point? To be angry because some people see the world a certain way? How illuminating.
btw: ANYTHING that mankind puts a label on is, in some way, a sham. That includes mythology, which I like a lot.
i’m not really into the whole “knowledge is unattainable” deal. i accept that, and it doesn’t really bother me that i’ll never “really” know who excatly did what to whom. for me, conspiracy theory (or parapolitical analysis, or whatever) is a matter of figuring out, in general or specific terms, how the world goes together, and how its coming apart. and that includes both facts (so far as facts can be pinned down) as much as subjective experience.
for me, the distinction between “inner” and “outer” conspiracies has been useful for sharpening my critical thinking skills, that is, noticing the difference between “mythological” and “analytical” thinking - not only in other conspiracists, but in my self. so even if it’s not possible in any ultimate sense to separate the 2 realms, in an immediate pragmatic sense i find it a very useful intuitional razor.
people conspire.
whether in business, government, family life etc.. people conspire.
its the way things work. if you have more than one person working together to do anything, its a conspiracy.
speak for yourself. because somebody knows. and they arent the God of me.. so, never say never…..
ill happily admit to not knowing the truth, the rest of my life would be pretty fucking boring if i had it all down already…. but damn you to hell if you think your are gonna stop me from figuring it out…
conspiracy theory, IMO, is human beings reacting to scientific materialism… the explanation of our existance being a random genetic mutation that coincidentally caused us into being simply doesnt do it for most folks… we KNOW its all connected, and thats what i see being figured out with CT. ……
that, and oh yeah, people conspire.
one
human?
To me, the real problem with conspiracy theory is the same as any information channel that takes on the role of a high-priest with an exclusive on the truth. Noam Chomsky on the left, Rush Limbaugh on the right and David Icke on the fringe (just to name a few), what are they saying? Where does their rhetoric overlap? If your really interested in what’s happening in the world around you, you have to take it all in. Conspiracy theory is not the answer, it’s another piece of the puzzle. To exclude it, or make it your exclusive world view is myopic in my opinion. My perspective is perpetually morphing at some point between myth and reality, as there is no more “truth†to one than the other. I really enjoy Tim’s speculation, and all the comments, there’s something to be learned in everything, and everyone, whether or not you agree. What the fuck do I really know about what’s going on in the world? Most of what I think I know was obtained vicariously, it’s all derivative and corruptible, but that doesn’t mean I should just shut down. This freedom to exchange thoughts and ideas that we’re engaged in right now is a “new life and new ideasâ€, enjoy it, don’t get stuck trying to prove this or that. Exchange and let go, keep what resonates with you, it’s all good.
>and all you “serious conspiracy theorists†can go and get fact.
I feel the same way about people that can tell you about some fuckin particular sports game from 1964.
-tc
YES! Exactly what I’m getting at!
James:
I think it IS very valuable, because it started this conversation, and this conversation is all about questioning oneself and what one believes…
a formula to live our lives effectively. that`s what religion pretends to offer. do these things and you will get these things in return. conspiracy theory is another way we are trying to make life seem predictable and controlable. like shouting out the answers on jeopardy. gives life meaning. knowing what it is about makes things easier to handle. it`s the best way i know to control people. a conspiracy of conspiracy theories and the delivery systems for getting them into our head. the mainstream and emerging fringe media, like coast to coast, alex merklinger, jeff rense, etc. they could all be c.i.a. operatives. we have questions, they have answers. tim, you will know when you have to take a rest, someone will accuse you of working for the c.i.a.
Anyway, just to clarify, since this came up again and again in the comments, I don’t think people shouldn’t engage in conspiracy theory, or in other kinds of inquiry. But I do want to figure out a way for myself to do it without getting stuck in a lot of the obvious pitfalls. And I want to learn more about how rational thinking combines with mythical thinking and how the two drive one another onward. I find that fascinating.
I jumped on Carlos’s comments specifically because they are so divisive and take such a strong stance here, and everybody left a lot of excellent counter-points on this that are really helping me to narrow down and zero in on what it is that I’m after with regards to all this. It’s great having so many sharp people on the job with me.
Alistair, when people accuse me of working for the CIA is when I know I’m doing my job right, because my mythologizing is so effective. Actually, a month or so ago, somebody accused me on a message board of being a disinformation agent. So that’s pretty sweet. Actually, if that was a real job, I’d like to have it. How do you get a job like that?
i could tell you, but then i’d have to cut out your tongue.
speaking of which, how come the masons never cut out your tongue when you figured out their secret about the djinn? you should try to “prove” that
we’re using words to try and describe secret illusions, so in the zen sense we’re all disinfo agents, they don’t need to pay anyone. maybe we should be paying everyone to be noinfo agents and just shut the hell up. i really think that conspiracy theory ultimately benefits the conspiracy.
exactly. and where are the facts pertaining to that process? in your mind, and not manifest until you act.
and there’s no religiousity, no church and no rule.
yes james i am angry, in general and about many things in particular, not least of which is that i’ve been a conspiracy theorist for so long and, i don’t know, it hurts, partially because it turns into the thing we’re fighting, and we no longer frame the discourse. so blow out the frame. i’m using this as a device to change focus. yours was the comment i was trying to provoke. “know myself and be accountable for my actions.” i love it; it’s simple, functional, and really has nothing at all to do with conspiracy theory, does it?
unless you consider that it’s kind of like internalising the conspiracy, like getting in touch with my inner rothschild.
many will continue their quest in internet conspiracy research form of course, and more power to them (massive props to WRH and RI). i just feel that the whole cast of characters also exists in our minds at the archetypal mythological level. yes i was a dickhead about it but i was kinda hoping to shock some more CTists into playing the game there instead, because i think jeff’s really on the money (and tim’s archetype/apocalypse stuff is “know yourself” gold).
i am glad to destroy beliefs and provide no solutions. in the blessed vacuum, potential.
(now when do i get my medal?)
we were originally talking about ct = religion, because tim wants to see how rational and mythical thought drive each other. a conspiracy religion could be a powerful synthesis of the “two paths”. before reading today’s posts i had written the following:
Ok I’ll stop trying to be clever and start being productive. If Tim says conspiracy theory is a religion, embrace it, if for nothing else but the tax-exempt status.
I hereby declare that the phrase conspiracy theory no longer exists. It’s a Conspiracy. Everyone is a Conspirator, whether they know it or not. We’re in on it. Are you?
Involve the Audience. The Religion is based on a mythological Quest to reveal Who Breathes Together. Your Facts, Hypotheses and Smoking Guns are religious artifacts to be treated with suspicion regarding their authenticity. Adopt no doctrine but Why? and So? (gold, jp, pure gold).
Because open source is what you’re trying to do. Create in the minds of the populace a self-organizing, self-programming, massively distributed revelatory device. Call it The Unblinking Eye.
Your real weapons are your actions (which speak for themselves), and your beliefs. I don’t believe in money, pass it on. Shit like that. The economy doesn’t exist. Market forces? What market? There is no war on terror, what are you raving on about?
The whole point of the “history’s actors” bit is that the burden of proof has been placed on us. We have to “prove” our “theories”. Well, I say we don’t. All we have to do is move faster than they are. Then they will have to go back to reacting to us.
Convey this with as few words and as many Redefined Symbols as possible. Be openly deceptive. I’m afraid it is a spiritual pissing contest. So beat them at their own game. I know it can’t be done. Not with that attitude.
Conspiracy. Be a part of it.
Conspiracy theory is where one turns when he has far too fast a processor for the average joe’s msm-slop running narrative. We’ve seen through all the crap so far, with an amazing degree of accuracy. We’re accurate in that we do not have to be precise about any of this. Right now, the thoughts and plots we hatch are for us and us alone. But the key, is that all are welcome to participate. There are no facts — there is only what we will do next, whether it be in action or reaction.
Who ever said world history is really the history of the world? Apparently far too many.
One thing you’ll notice around rich tycoons and when they meet, is that there is no script. They bounce shit off each other just like we do. The only difference is that they can direct massive amounts of capital when their ideas take flight collectively within the in-group, in such ways that they form thinktanks and other forms of potent info/disinfo to try out or acclimate the public to. Keep in mind, these people with the big bucks have the resources to make big things happen that other people will know about and perhaps become politically motivated to stop them. Since it is considered (no offense to us of course) that we on the lower rungs are ultimately as pliable as their fleet of scottish terriers — perhaps even more so — they believe their concepts and actions will ultimately be a win win for all — by destroying what they fear.
Everything today could be seen to be an overreaction. We overreact to everything but what truly matters. We overreact to shit we are shown, not that which we imagine or intuit. We are now beginning to overreact to the amount of information one should or shouldn’t have at his fingertips. It’s any wonder that the elite have allowed this Internet thing to go on for this long. But perhaps some of them see it as we see it — a tool, a reservoir, a great buffet of ideas and emotions.
The policestate will close in, but it will not for long and will be repelled — but this will be painful (very, very painful). The policestate is the brainchild of lazy motherfuckers who were teens in the 1950’s. These fuckers have the power, as of now to destroy all life on Earth — except for themselves of course. So they’re simply excercising their freedoms so to speak. There will be a revolt within their ranks that will see the great opensource pool of ideas this Internet is as the stepping stone to greater freedom and even better planets we can go and fuck up to start the unnerving process all over again. What we need is a concensus that defuses the abject state of anger and confusion everybody feels, as this is how we open our souls for them to feed on. Eventually, they will feed no more.
So, hey, guess what? An atheist suddenly finds himself looking for a messiah. There was a time where I would have scoffed at making such an admission.
Carlos, you make statues of the Virgin Mary cry when you talk about conspiracy theory. It’s beautiful.
Goddamn Carlos, that about sums it up.
To briefly move from CT to QT:
Horseshit. Contrary to what some people will tell you, nothing emerges fully-formed from a void, least of all a Tarantino movie. The films that he ripped off are part of the fabric of his own works and have everything to do with the story (or does Carlos think QT actually invented that plot about a woman taking revenge and going nuts with a samurai sword by himself?)…
And I have no idea why that came out in bold…
Blockquotes require a line break before and after. I fixed it. I’d rather not have this turn into a thread about Tarantino, if it can be avoided. It seems really only tangentially related to the larger points Carlos is making above.
I know, it was just a point that annoyed me. Thanks for fixing the formatting…
i know QT “borrowed” the ideas for kill bill, why do you think i called him a bricoleur? my point was this: he scoured some of the shittest films ever made, retrieved ideas that interested him, and synthesised them into a narrative that had meaning to him. the ideas that he stole had mythic resonance, that’s why he stole them.
so i watch kill bill and enjoy it, because i’m hooked by the narrative. so you tell me: oh that scene was stolen from lady snowblood. Well ok, so? and you start blabbing about this detail and that detail, but guess what? i didn’t go to see kill bill for the details, i went to see a story. stop kicking the back of my seat.
and the people who’s ideas QT stole, where did they get theirs? are you gonna chase that trail all the way back to the dawn of human history? if you do you’ll find that the ideas are the same mythic archetypes that were in kill bill. so you could have saved yourself some time researching tedious factoids and just gone straight to the source.
that’s what i meant about researching the Conspiracy. do i have to know every little detail from every fucking event in human history? or can i just look at the symbolic archetypes and cut the shit?
the value of the idea is this: facts are in the past. narratives drive the future.
(and the “source” of these myths and archetypes is a vacuum, sea, void, or whatever, and every fucking creation myth in existence has my back on that one.)
but you know what, we’ve both wasted precious time and energy arguing the details in the post, but like tim said, it was a detail that had nothing at all to do with the story! AAAARRRGH!
fuck, the time i’ve wasted here could’ve been spent reading today’s posts.
Ha ha. What I’ve just learned from being an evangelist of any kind: if someone doesn’t get it, let it go.
After all, maybe I’m the one who doesn’t get it. I mean, I was the one who used the kill bill example to start my rant, so if someone gets hung up on that detail, well I put it there. It was all in the way that I framed the narrative. And then I went and got annoyed because someone got annoyed? Man, posting on blogs can be embarrassing.
Sorry.
Oh don’t apologise, it’s just me. I’m a film geek above all else
I’ll tell you this much, I think you’re dead right about what you say about conspiracy theorists turning to CT. I saw one of Alex Jones’ videos tonight, and while I thought that, underneath the paranoia, he actually had some useful things to say (until he mentioned the Illuminati and lost me), I still got the impression that you describe: he was doing it to make himself feel good. I, Alex Jones, know what’s really going on. I, Alex Jones, will show you what’s happening. I, Alex Jones, am the way and the life, etc. It’s like he’s trying to reassure himself of his own significance.
yeah, i do the same thing. am as subtle as a brick.
how awesome was enternal sunshine of the spotless mind?
TOTALLY AWESOME!
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