timboucher

Ben Mack is the author of Poker Without Cards (available at Amazon), which bills itself as a “consciousness thriller”. PWC is a fictionalized exploration of memetics and marketing, areas which Mack has a great deal of experience in as a career adman, having worked on high-profile ad campaigns with such corporations as Grieco Research Group, Lieberman Research Worldwide, Deutsch, J. Walter Thompson, WONGDOODY, BBDO, & WestWayne.

Having seen the influence business from the inside, Ben is joining the growing number of authors bent on exposing the machinations of the powerful to manipulate both our perceptions and our reality. Ben was kind enough to allow Pop Occulture a detailed exclusive 2 part behind-the-scenes look at what he’s doing, how he’s doing it and why. So, get ready to learn how to play poker without cards, courtesy of Ben Mack! And stay tuned for Part 2, appearing later this week.

[Note about formatting: My questions appear in bold, and Ben's responses appear in plain text.]

I heard about your book, Poker Without Cards (PWC), a while back and thought it sounded interesting.

Tim, first off, thanks you for granting me this interview. I am greatly appreciative. I was concerned by comments I read on your site and I’m grateful for the opportunity to share my perspective. This is the first straightforward interview I will do. I will be candid here because I respect occult investigation, and of all places, this is a forum for honesty. If you read books on the history of magic, you know that churches have been using the techniques of magicians for as long as we have records.

So, I will explain some of the mysteries of my book, Poker Without Cards. I won’t be doing my normal dog-and-pony show. So, as you ask questions, there are likely to be spoilers contained herein, and readers who haven’t read my book are encouraged to go to my site and download the free $3.23 version and read that first. That $3.23 edition is actually free. I do ask that if a reader finds value that they donate $3.23 to whomever or whatever they like. I hope that your readers will blog about my book. I also hope some will consider blogging under the name Howard Campbell when they are raging against the disinformation of our government and corporatocracy, if the two can be separated.

I think Laura Jane introduced us back in January. My roommate (Jesse Carter), Laura and I are all crazy about Philip K. Dick. We’re also big fans of Sacred Santa.

But, Tim, you never read my book back then.

I still haven’t read your book, actually. In any event, Poker Without Cards didn’t come back into my brain as a topic of importance until I learned how to play poker from my brothers-in-law during a recent family vacation. When I came back, I had this – what I like to refer to as – problem-solving dream, wherein I tried for hours to figure out how we play poker in real life without using any cards. So how do we do it?

Tim, I appreciate you asking me questions about Poker Without Cards and finding out what you want to know. What I resent is people commenting online about my book and it is obvious they haven’t read my book, or maybe skimmed it. I seriously doubt my book is truly a speed read. Terms like poker without cards sound very simple until contemplated. I used the simplest words I could to transmit sometimes subtle ideas. I hope others will do a better job at disseminating these ideas. I’m a hack. I did the best I knew how.

Mike Caro coined the term poker without cards. On Amazon, you can find two books by this title [here is the version where Caro is listed as author]. In 2001, I interviewed Mike Caro at his home in the Ozarks while I was working as a memeticist at WONGDOODY Advertising. Mike explained that poker could be played with cow dung. Let’s say we go each have a paper bag and we search a field for the biggest piece of dung. We gather around with our dung hidden from view in our bags and we wager who has the largest. The structure of poker is betting with incomplete information. I never thought of this connection between poker and The Zeigarnik Effect, they both deal with incomplete information. If somebody can’t see how the story of Jesus, of him coming back soon, isn’t structurally the same as Direct Response advertising’s application of The Zeigarnik Effect, then fuck, I hope their god preaches peace because the world is full of similar sheep that crave blood. But I digress into now, my current train of thought.

Back then, maybe I’d been watching too much poker on television, but my life had begun occurring to me in poker terminology. Tim, this is a longer story, but this should flesh out the perspective of seeing life as poker and playing poker without cards. What follows is a rather benign scenario of poker without cards.

In March, 2002, a headhunter, Pete Gagliardi, called and asked what it would take to get me to consider taking another job. I said two-hundred-grand. I was bluffing. I was making $125,000 at the time, but I was happy at my job and saw no immediate threat to my continued employment. It was like having an Ace-Jack suited, seated in late position and playing with somebody else’s money. If the headhunter called, game on. If he didn’t, I’m happy with the size of the pot–$125,000 was the most money I had ever made. WONGDOODY had cool people and did great creative. My only complaint was that our clients were small so we couldn’t afford to do many consumer research studies.

Pete said he had heard great things about me and that my salary requirement was inline with a position he was looking to fill, but that he couldn’t tell me for whom. He asked me to send him my résumé. I said fine. He said he would send it to his client. Expecting nothing to come of this conversation, I hung up and sent him my résumé, an art-directed PowerPoint presentation that visually lauded my skills and achievements.

I worked for Ben Weiner at WONGDOODY. To make matters more of a tongue-tie, I was a memeticist, strategizing how we could make messages more communicable. Two weeks after the headhunter’s inquiry, Ben Weiner called me into his office. Alaska Airlines had decided to cut back their compensation as part of the fall-out from 9/11. Damn. I hadn’t seen this coming. Alaska was using us, specifically me, more than they ever had. In the fluid dynamics of post-9/11 air travel, strategy, planning and positioning was more important than ever. But, I understood Weiner’s position–Alaska hadn’t wanted to compensate WONGDOODY for my time. WONGDOODY had been anteing my time and the bet hadn’t paid off. Game over. With great panache, Ben Weiner gave me a severance and said I could use my office while I searched for my next game.

Time to call up my list of headhunters. I called those I had worked with before. I called those who I had known were good. I called Pete Gagliardi.

“Pete, Ben Mack.”
“Ben, I was just about to call you.”
“That’s great. What about?”
“You know that position I couldn’t tell you anything about?”
“Yeah.”
“Well, they loved your résumé. They said they had never seen anything like it and that if you are half as good at packaging their clients as you package yourself you’d probably be a great fit.”
“Who’s the they?”
“BBDO, Atlanta.”
“Atlanta?”
“Does that scare you?”
“Yes.”
“Are you interested or is that a deal breaker?”

For two-hundred-grand I would consider Siberia. My jaded West cost perception pictured Atlanta as Siberia filled with rednecks.

“I don’t know anything about them. I need to go online and do my research.”
“You are being considered to be the lead account planner on Cingular. You would report to the Chief Strategy Officer.”
“Wow. Okay, tell them I’m interested.” I’d never worked on a half-billion dollar piece of business. Man, money for research. Cool.

We worked out details for next steps and hung up. In poker, I’ve learned the value of not showing my hand. He never asked me what I was calling him with. I never told him I was laid-off.

The next day, Pete called back and said they wanted to fly me out there to interview as soon as possible. I said fine, I could make arrangements to be away and asked when. The following day, he called back and said that they ideally wanted me to freelance for them, for a couple days, as a test run. He wanted to know how much I would charge. I said fifteen hundred a day and I asked when. He said he didn’t know. He called back and said next week, next Thursday and Friday. I said fine.

“Ben, how can you get away from work?”
“Pete, when we spoke last…”
“Yeah”
“The next week I was laid off.”
“But, I’m calling you at WONGDOODY.”
“Yes. They’re cool with me. Alaska Airlines made cut backs and I was a natural cut back with expenses and all…”
“This explains so much.”

We finished the call and Pete called me back twenty minutes later. He wanted to know if I would give them a weekly rate. The Cliff Notes ending to this story is that BBDO moved me to Atlanta where I worked as a Senior Vice President, Brand Strategy Director on Cingular Wireless. That was a pot I dragged, a $180k salary plus bonuses and all.

Are you a big poker player? That is, do you ever play poker with cards?

That was as big as I’ve played, being a senior strategist on a half billion dollar a year advertising campaign. I got fired from my last gig.

In traditional poker, I once lost a thousand dollars on a hand. Actually, I lost $12,800 on a hand, but I had bought in for a grand so my net loss for the night was on a thousand dollars…I had trouble sleeping for months. I don’t like to think about that. There are many things I don’t like to think about, but I’ll go there if my retelling the story helps somebody feel less alone in their thoughts.

In terms of current poker? I currently rent a room at the APC, The Atlanta Poker Club. I have a room upstairs in the house and downstairs there is poker on Thursday nights and sometimes random nights. I do okay, but right now I’m down in this game. When I was twenty-five I was a better poker player, more disciplined. I considered going pro back then, but I sucked compared to casino players for medium stakes, but I did great in home games, until the sharks came. I weigh over 200 pounds, so, that makes me a big poker player.

But, I don’t play much these days and my skill is down. I like playing Omaha high-low. Invite me to a game if you see me.

You indicate that you’ve got a great deal of experience as an advertising executive for a number of prominent agencies. And yet your marketing tactics for PWC seem unorthodox at best, or simply confusing at worst. How would you explain this discrepancy?

Hakim Bey’s Temporary Autonomous Zone is the strategy book from which I’m playing. Crispin Porter, the cutting-edge advertising agency that created Subservient Chicken uses this strategy book as well. Guess what, his [Bey's] book is a free download. On my blog, I have explained that I’m using Bey’s strategy. I’ve even created a blog to that end.

One of my personal goals is to help more freethinking folks to see this strategy and implement It themselves to help promote the causes for which they care. The dark magicians are using this tactic quite effectively. But, as in Harry Potter, it is difficult to find quality teachers of the dark arts. People that really know the dark arts tend to be making tons of money or so bamboozled by society they live a dysfunctional life. Most folks I hear ranting about dark magicians don’t know shit. Buckminster Fuller, Douglas Rushkoff, Robert Anton Wilson, Bob Dobbs and David Icke are notable exceptions. So are most poets and artists of any merit. There are Others who have this perception but don’t publicly share their knowledge. My goal, as Timothy Leary spelled out, is to find The Others.

I don’t view my tactics as cutting-edge. But, I do view Bey’s tactics as under utilized for good intentions. Bob Dobb asserts that the two greatest misconceptions of 20th Century Americans are that politicians mean well and that they aren’t that smart. In the 21st Century we actually have a president who isn’t that smart. Now, we are living in the Philip K. Dick book Simulacra. Wait, I’m sorry, that started in the 20th Century when we hired an actor to play the role of president.

Look, I’m just doing a little show on a small stage. Turn on TV and watch the news and you’ll see all the tactics I’m pulling used nightly. When is Bloomsday? How come so many people that call themselves smart don’t know what that means? How come they’ve never heard of Leo Strauss? How come they can’t tell the difference between trickery and the magic of nature, often referred to as occult. I’m not the only one who sees the masses as sheep. Yes, my book simplifies many of the ideas Robert Anton Wilson puts forward. That’s the point of my book, to make ideas more accessible and I know that by doing this I get disqualified from being seen as an artist of high art. Fine. I’m trying to be effective and I don’t really care how I get classified so long as readers get ideas of reality construction they hadn’t had previously. And, if they have covered similar ground, maybe they see something new. Most speed readers I notice don’t absorb what they read. Eric Hirschberg reads very slowly, but I see that he gets what he reads.

Is there really a discrepancy between your professional advertising experience and what you’re doing now, or are you actually still using cutting edge marketing techniques? Why not just be more straightforward? What about the people who are turned off by your approach?

When I worked in advertising I was helping clients spend millions of dollars on mass media. Now, most of my freelance work is niche research, brainstorming or copywriting. Back when I was salaried, nobody would have hired me as a copywriter. They do now.

My writing and my blogs are the majority of advertising for PWC, but it’s more like infotainment, or, an infomercial where I provide entertainment and then occasionally ask people to buy my product, Poker Without Cards, this amazing Ginzo Book that slices, dices and even purees, makes mounds-and-mounds of Julian fries as it shines the chrome on any car. But, at the end of the day, That is part of my show. My show. I feel like Animal on The Muppets ranting, “My drums. My drums! My Drums! MY DRUMS!” To quote Ben Harper from Fight For Your Mind’s song Burn One Down, “If you don’t like my fire, don’t come around.”

Damn I feel like Bill Hicks being interviewed by a British twit. He was asked the same question. There are plenty of other shows on the net, turn the channel. It is MY show. This is what I am having fun doing. Some readers find value. I’m playing to them, the people who don’t take themselves too seriously and see my humor. I’m most amused by readers who seem addicted to my material and how bad it is. When I’ve met these folks, they occur to me as being really uptight and I would prescribe getting laid more often. But, I’m not a doctor, although I really did play one on TV, when I was a member of the Screen Extras Guild, back in the day.

Healthy people have a life. When they encounter something they authentically dislike, they don’t immerse themselves in it so they can rant against the atrocity, they move on. I crack up when I see a fundamentalist Christian say that pornography is the devils work and dangerous stuff, that’s why they spent 800 hours the previous year going through pornos to classify what’s what. But who am I to talk, I immerse myself in government and corporate persuasion. What I do as skits is nothing compared to their extravaganzas. I would prefer to only focus on love and fun, but I get distracted. If I really took The Bucky Challenge seriously, I would be working on solving survival issues and inspire humanity. But, the I see all the money and energy going towards Corporatocracy and I feel that by revealing these mechanism that maybe I am doing good.

“I’m gonna share with you a vision that I had, cause I love you. And you feel iT. You know all that money we spend on nuclear weapons and defense each year, trillions of dollars, correct? Instead — just play with this — if we spent that money feeding and clothing the poor of the world — and it would pay for it many times over, not one human being excluded — we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever in peace. Thank you very much. You’ve been great, I hope you enjoyed it.”

That’s how Bill ended a show in Los Angeles. An interviewer from London had flown across the pond to ask him some questions about what was troubling her. I’ve gifted my tape so I don’t have the verbatim. In Hicks’ follow-up question he was asked something like, “What about the people who say they don’t want to think when they go to a comedy club?”

Hicks’ reply was something like, “First of all it is my show and comedy is one of the few places where you can have your own show and say exactly what you think is important because if you haven’t noticed, mass media is crap…Where do they like to think? I’ll meet them there…I don’t have to do this material here.”

That’s why I think activists need to read TAZ and do street theatre that leaves a dangling question. Confrontation rarely works. I use that technique sometimes but it is messy because when I have that one-on-one engagement I’ve left a few people sobbing and having trouble walking their cosmography is so utterly destroyed. I don’t like the feeling of responsibility when this happens. I, now try and encourage people to read the texts of Jesus from a number of different sources and to encourage them to compare translations. The lead singer of KISS fucked a nun once. He said this left him discomfited for months.

Look, I find myself surrounded by a confederacy of dunces with the occasional elitist scum who claim to KNOW stuff. I’m an Idiot. I crack up when I read comments about my book that there are no new ideas in PWC. I used to get excited because I saw this as an opportunity to learn from somebody who already covered the mental terrain I’m crossing, somebody who can show me some interesting routes and neat mental scenic views. I’ve learned that these people are generally vacuous pompous scum, on their blogs and their sites I feel their energy and all I see is a they’re contributing to society. I don’t understand how they can maintain their superior attitude, but then I see the Bush family maintaining their vacuous superiority. I guess money helps.

I love seeing people write. NOW, I want writers to write for a broader audience. I love seeing a blogger that blogs in forums way outside their daily life. There is a Muslim writer who regularly comments on my boards and I love watching him stretch. I love reading about how Jesus helps people and when I blog on their sites I strive to find common ground. That’s what I hope I can get, common ground. I didn’t find It for myself. I found It as a means to learn how we can make iT stronger.

If my book isn’t that good, fine. Write a better book. I did the best I could with what God gave me. Also, don’t think my god is like your god. God = Universe, so if your have a guy with white hair talking to his son, that’s contained in my god and God can beat up any delusion you dredge up. WRITE A BETTER BOOK. I got similar comments on my fire eating book being crap. You know what? It was the best book out there for over a decade and when I saw posts about how crappy my book was, I told them to write a better book and somebody finally did: The Professional Guide To Fire Eating.

My goal, that I state openly, and repeatedly, is to inspire people to write. When somebody says that they got everything I had to say and I see their short blogs and cutting comments I realize the person missed my whole point—Learn to write well. I’m working on the craft. I’m sorry I’m not better, but being critical all the time and not offering constructive criticism is simply adding to the world’s negativity. If you don’t like my writing, watch my video: The Pitch, Poker And The Public.

Again, to quote Ben Harper from Fight For Your Mind, this time from Excuse Me Mr.,

“Oh - excuse me Mr.
Do you have the time,
Or are you so important that It stands still for you?
Excuse me Mr.
Won’t you lend me your ear,
Or are you not only blind but do you not hear?
… you’re givin’ Mr. a bad name,
Mr. like you.
And, I’m taking the Mr. from out in front of your name,
’cause it’s a Mr. like you that puts the rest of us to shame.
… I’ve seen enough,
Oh - I’ve seen enough,
I’ve seen enough to know that I’ve seen too much…”

Your book alleges to be a transcript of a conversation between Howard Campbell, a professional advertising man, and his therapist.

In fiction, I had a number of choices for framing the reader’s experience. This is an old structure I borrowed from Les Liaisons Dangereuses.

In this discussion, Campbell spills the beans on the secret influence techniques used in media and advertising. Sounds kind of similar to Douglas Rushkoff’s book, Coercion. Is it?

I haven’t read Coercion, just skimmed it. I know iT’s good. I Love Rushkoff’s videos. I feel remiss in not knowing Rushkoff’s work better. You wanna ask me about his videos or Cyberia?

Not really. I’m not familiar with either. If you don’t know Rushkoff’s work very well, how or why did you manage to get an endorsement from him for Poker Without Cards? I think he said something about how this book will prevent you from working in advertising ever again.

Well, I didn’t say I didn’t know his work very well. I said I haven’t read all of Coercion. I offered for you to quiz me on his videos or one of his other books. I imagine PWC is, in content, most like Coercion. Rushkoff’s quote, I gather, follows the logic that since I discuss the larger industry of communications in a bright light, it is unlikely that a big agency would hire me. But, you’d have to ask him.

Who is Howard Campbell and what’s your relationship to him?

One of favorite books of all times is called Debunking The Celestine Prophecy, a NY Times bestseller. I love books that debunk fiction. In Persig’s Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance, his big blowout with his teacher ends when the teacher asks a ridiculous question, the superior attitude teacher took the material so seriously he forgot It was fiction. Howard W. Campbell is the character in Kurt Vonnegut’s Mother Night. I couldn’t get Manufacturing America published so I turned that manuscript into a thriller. Manufacturing America was a revision TWISP, a 190 page book I wrote in four days after returning from Costa Rica with Cecelia Wogan and her friend Robyn. I was such a dork on that trip. If I didn’t have so much backed-up semen I probably wouldn’t have needed to purge my system by writing like a fiend. But the trip was fantastic. They had both read Howard Bloom’s Lucifer Principle. I was mesmerized about how they understood memetics. I had studied memetics but was turned off to Howard’s book because of the title. I thought his book was some sort of crap occult literature. Seriously, most occult literature is pure capitalistic drivel, hoping to make money off the stupidity of the masses and to deluge a viable category with junk, confusing new readers. Poker Without Cards is fiction. It is my attempt to make something non-drivel. I hold that I do a decent job of explaining many of the ideas in Coercion, a book I have never read in its entirety, but it’s on my list. Sorry Douglas, I found your book after I was fairly steeped in category knowledge. What I have read of it seems totally right on. Those interested in these ideas will be well served to read Mickey Z’s 7 Deadly Spins. I wrote fiction because fiction is more accessible to most people. What was read most in his day, fiction by RAW or his non-fiction? I think Quantum Psychology and TSOG are his master works, but as I’ve been duly noted online, I’m just a hack. I agree. I don’t make high art. I just do what I do, parodying TV and making fights with myself to keep my online story going. I’m writing a soap opera online. I wrote a soap opera in one act in Direct Response: The Art Reid Story.

Going back to Howard Campbell, this isn’t the same Howard Campbell listed for Art Director/filmography in 1965’s landmark drama, How to Stuff a Wild Bikini, is it?

Nope. Neat, that you found that.

In your interview with Gpod conducted by Joseph Matheny, it’s mentioned that Joseph Matheny is your publisher.

The funniest part about that interview is the quantity of email Howard received empathizing with what a scumbag Ben was. I sent these folks links to Fox News sites that were obviously bogus stories where their sources were their affiliate stations. ECHO, ECHo, ECho, Echo—Do I hear an echo? What does an echo chamber sound like? Let’s turn on the TV and feel it, but then one would have to chase down the source of the echo, the heart of The Corportocracy Noise Machine. I’m simply demonstrating how media works, but I get astounded by seeing people get bamboozled. I tell people that seem to not be getting It.

It looks like New Fiction is my new publisher, but the ink isn’t dry yet. Joseph hooked me up with everything. I wouldn’t be blogging if it weren’t for his genius and inspiration. He also turned me on to Jesus.

Seriously? You’re into Jesus? In what way? Do you go to church or anything? Have you gotten into any of this gnostic Christian stuff floating around on and off the web?

The closest I’ve come to finding a church is the Unitarian Universalists. I don’t feel comfortable sharing more specifics. I feel attacked by many of the emails I get. I’d prefer to keep my specific studies to myself. Let’s just say that I’m reading many translations of Jesus from many different sources. I’m still about wiccan rights. I’m still about free thinking. I still think Jesus was an inspired man, and just that, a man. Not many churches will let me admire their heroes without turning them into gods—I find that so quaint, so Romanesque of them.

Did you try to get PWC published by any of the major publishing houses?

I couldn’t get Manufacturing America published. I got really good at writing query letters.

I spent a couple years querying lit agents, accumulating 86 rejection letters, figuring I sent about 200 queries—pretty darn good ratio of replies. By the end of the two-years, I was getting a reply to approximately 3/4th of my query letters. When I read the book The Eleventh Draft, I didn’t realize this meant that every step of publishing often required eleven or more drafts.

Al Zuckerman said he would represent me if I was willing to take $3,000 for my book with a 6% commission but no real hope of ever getting more, that my book should be published but It wouldn’t sell–stating that he knew a house it was good for but that it was not a mass book and he couldn’t invest time if I had grander ambitions for this piece of work. At the same time, a new publishing house, eXe, was forming and they, Joseph Matheny & Company, wanted to publish my book and would give me 42.5%. I signed with them without an agent. Since then, my contract has been given over to New Fiction. I had a good contract with very favorable terms and Dave is willing to honor my original contract. I own all rights, including switching publishers if I so choose.

At present, a reader in Brazil is translating Poker Without Cards into Portuguese. If you read Portuguese easier than English, I’ll hook you up with Bruno Longo. Or, if you know any publishers in Brazil, we’re interested.

Right now you’re publishing though Lulu.com, a self-publishing company with pretty much no editorial review, which doesn’t even charge a fee for their most basic services. I take it then that this isn’t a permanent arrangement?

I wish more folks would take advantage of this fabulous opportunity.

At present, Dave Szulborski is using Lulu as we gain momentum and finish the cover and the type layout. Patrick Griffin owner of Canada Type, is art directing the book’s layout before New Fiction publishes the books through a traditional printer.

How does Joseph Matheny fit into your work? Are you guys friends, co-conspirators, what?

We’re not lovers, if that’s what you’re asking. Yeah, we’re friends. Conspirators sounds so dark. We no longer have any business ties. Now, we’re both just trying to get some ideas out there. Let people know there is a there, there. You know how much time and energy Joseph invests in keeping GL [GreyLodge] going? It pains me to read all the flack he receives.

Are your intentions to arouse the interest of a major publisher using a sort of cultural back-door approach or are you content publishing independently?

I’m open to that possibility, but look, if I get 42% now and sell 5,000 books, I would need to sell 35,000 books to make the same money with a traditional press. Some really smart publishers are starting their own gigs like this. I see this as the future of publishing. Why would I want to give so much more money to support the executives in big cars.

Poker Without Cards could use editing. One way to get a good editor is through a publisher. I could be woo’ed. If I believed an editor could make my book take off, I’d be there.

Tune in later this week for Part 2 of Pop Occulture’s interview with Ben Mack, in which we talk about truth, disinformation, the Landmark Forum, Dr. Hyatt, James Curcio and Ben’s plans for the future. Not to be missed!

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