the timboucher experience

Welcome to Part 2 of Pop Occulture’s interview with advertising expert Ben Mack, author of the consciousness thriller Poker Without Cards. In this exclusive interview series, Ben Mack reveals a detailed behind-the-scenes look at himself, his book, and his marketing techniques.

In case you missed Part 1 of this interview, it’s available here. Special thanks again to Ben Mack for this excellent in-depth interview.

[Note about formatting: My interview questions appear in bold text, while Ben's appear in plain text.]

In a transcribed conversation between you and James Curcio, author of Join My Cult!, Curcio states at one point: “Really, I’ve come to the conclusion that fiction or non-fiction, in terms of genre, is really just a matter of device. Truth has nothing to do with it.” And your response is: “PWC is reality fiction. ‘Non-fiction’ is still subjective so what’s the difference, really–I agree with you, it is a distinction in genre not structure.” Some people might interpret this to mean that you guys don’t give a shit about the truth one way or another.

You’d have to have to ask James for his opinion. I know he is NOT a fan of my “circus stunts”. Truth with a capital “T” can not be depicted in static words. I give shits all the time. My life would be easier if I cared less. If anybody knows a better way to convey my ideas I’m all ears. I welcome people to swipe my ideas if they aren’t making money on the endeavor and they aren’t being malicious. I’m open to constructive criticism and fair comments. I’m interested in real facts. I see TV as bullshit. I’m glad some people are getting pissed about knowing what’s real. I aso think that I’m doing far less abuse of factual reporting than the average “news” broadcast. Did you see my recent blog over at GNN? I saw similar coverage of the ’94 L.A. Earthquakes. How come not one news broadcast showed the corporate looting in Hollywood where poor people were evicted from their apartments? I finally got a news-team out there but they never broadcasted the story. News is just that, the plural of new ideas for the day and most of their ideas don’t smell that fresh to me. If somebody gets pissed enough, I hope they start reading Chomsky and listening to Bill Hicks. If I piss you off, write about that. That’s fair. Tell me how your feeling without threatening me.

I just popped over to GNN and found out that the story I blogged may be bogus.

If the truth can’t be depicted in static words, on what grounds should people believe (or disbelieve) anything you say?

Follow what Buck told me in Fuller’s Earth. Figure It out for yourself and quit believing—believing takes too much energy. Know or don’t know. It’s okay to be wrong but believing is a waste of energy.

As you stated earlier, Kurt Vonnegut’s novel Mother Night features a character named Howard Campbell. In the book, Vonnegut says something to the effect of “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be.” Robert Anton Wilson (among others) also has said for many years, “Fake it till you make it,” which seems to point in the same direction. So I guess my question for you is: who are you, and who are you pretending to be?

I’m Benjamin Garth Siddhartha Mack, son of Art and Lucy Mack, brother to Haley Mack. I am a lover to Liz Boswell. I am an author and magician. I am a protégé to R. Buckminster Fuller’s spirit.

You mention Fuller a lot – just what’s your connection to him?

You can read excerpted transcript of a conversation I and two kids had with him in the book Fuller’s Earth, as mentioned above. That’s it. No other formal connection. I study his ideas. I just finished reading Cosmic Fishing about the experience of the man who helped Bucky write Synergy. Bucky thinks different. I spent a few days with him as a kid. He impacted my psyche, put a stamp on me. I’m grateful, but it hasn’t always been easy.

Going back to Wilson’s quote: are you faking it? Perhaps more importantly, are you making it?

Yeah, I’m making iT. Of course I’m faking it. Fear and ignorance, I mean arrogance. Life is a dance between fear and arrogance. Ignorance helps keep the fear away.

I’m not sure I really get what you mean by that.

I guess I was thinking about Bull Durham. If this were a different kind of interview, I would go back over this text and sprinkle it with quotes from that movie, but we’re trying to be straightforward and not arty or cutesy.

Maybe I don’t understand the question or the distinction between faking it and making it. Maybe I don’t know what making it means. I’m confident I fake it. I’m also confident I see things differently than most. When the going gets weird, the weird go pro. Going pro feels disconcerting. When I became a professional magician I felt like I was faking it, same with when I first started Mack Research & Planning, same with when I first worked in advertising. Each job transition feels like I’m faking something for a period of time.

In the Gpod interview, Campbell mentions wanting to send you to the Landmark Forum. Elsewhere I saw you use a modified version of a popular Landmark-ism, “What you resist persists.” Are you a graduate or current member of the Forum?

I did est when I was eight. I participated in The Forum when I was 23. I also took their Advanced Course and The Forum In Action, but they wouldn’t take me in the Self Expression class after I was hospitalized.

Hospitalized? What happened?

Ahh fuck. That’s what Manufacturing America is about, explaining to myself that I can be labeled insane and still make sense to myself. You get that Bucky in Poker Without Cards is largely based on me? PWC is a work of fiction. I made up the psychiatrist and the plot points and the settings, but what happened to Bucky is pretty much what happened to me at Bennington. Everything else is made up.

Based on the description at his site, Dr. Hyatt’s Extreme Individual Institute (EII), which I heard you were involved with, seems similar in spirit to Landmark, retooled to appeal to counter-culturalists and underground thinkers. In that conversation with James Curcio, Curcio says “I just wish there was money in training kids and adults how to use their language to create better realities… Some sort of real-world X-Men college. Calculus, visual art, Kung fu, Tantra and energy healing.” Is that what EII is trying to be?

Dr. Hyatt is a whiny bitch. I love the dude. Fragile people should not seek his help. Be prepared to pay if you want his personal attention. He requests honesty and he is a tough teacher. To the best of my knowledge, I am the only graduate of EII, but I have yet to receive a printed diploma. He is a good teacher. Use his texts and if you have the money, email him.

Curcio shows promise as an art director. He sucks as a businessman and I wish I didn’t want out of my contract with him, but right now I just want out. He and I both feel like we’re being screwed by the other. He has put a ton of time into my website and my book cover, neither of which were things I asked him to invest his time into, and not nearly the quantity of time he has. What I have asked of him, to help our business of selling my book has been late, not done, or done with errors. What the fuck kind of magick is own to spark from a careless magician? My goal with my book is to make money. James says he has the same objective. I don’t believe him, which is a kind, socially acceptable way of saying I know he is lying. I chose not to use the word believe, but that really pisses him off. If your readers think I harsh of them, they should read on my blog what I wrote to James.

Look, I am sick and tired of seeing our government do the shitty shit It does.

Your readers should buy his book, he needs the money.

Is EII something like what you’re hoping to do personally?

I like doing live shows and teaching creativity seminars with CPSI folks.

Can you describe the nature of your experience and relationship with EII?

No, other than be prepared to write your autobiography and to be hugely uncomfortable at times.

Could your work be considered a recruiting tool for EII?

God, I hope you’re in better shape than viewing me in an aspirational light. That was fucked up what I just said. Listen, I’m reticent to recruit anybody for anything. I delve into this in my FreeBookWorthReading. I have no cult. I have no movement. I want people to think for themselves and care for humanity.

There’s a thread on Barbelith about you and Joseph Matheny, where a user named “macha in pigtails” exclaims: “The whole thing is bullshit. or the future of literature. There is a story, then there is a character who investigates then there is a trail of evidence then there a bunch of people talking on the internet bashing each other. Disinformation systems as literature.” How do you react to people calling your work bullshit or disinformation?

I have no problem with that. Trite irks me. People commenting as if they read the piece who obviously didn’t irks me. Neocons irk me.

Is the future of literature/entertainment all about blurring the lines of reality, as in immersive or alternate reality gaming?

Joseph Matheny, the media theorist would be better at tackling this question. My take is that I’m not blurring the lines, I’m pointing out the line currently invisible to most. I’m just pulling stunts as seen on TV. If somebody thinks this is bullshit, what do they think of Fox News?

Well, what if they think both are bullshit? As Zac asks in a post at Alchemical Braindamage on this topic: “Is the only way to wake people up, to punk them one more time?“

Do you really think I’m punking people? I only try and punk the ones with aggressive energy. I see myself living amongst sloths. How do we rouse them out of their comfy beds of a sleepwalking life we call this culture? Then, if somebody does decide they must take action, they often go do something silly like join the peace corps and so they are working even more directly for President Bush’s agenda.

Did you feel punked by 6th Sense? My book is classified as fiction. I’m amused when I become the focus of rage that I duped somebody. I’m sorry to laugh, but FUCK, why aren’t these people mad as hell with mass media. I hold that they are under-educated about mass media and should stop what they are doing and read Mickey Z’s 7 Deadly Spins.

What pisses me off is getting an email I believe to be true and the content is the craft of a Direct Response copywriter. Here’s one I fell for.

Throughout this interview, you’ve been making some kind of intentional distinction with your capitalization of the word “it”. I’ve seen you write: (1) “it”, (2) “It”, and (3) “iT”. Could you talk a little more about that and perhaps give us some practical applications of the distinction?

Roughly…It = Attacan; iT equals Nacireman; it is ambiguous. Everybody can be divided into two groups: those that can be divided into two groups…

Talk about ambiguous… come on. That’s not remotely practical. Nor does it really explain anything. Let’s try again.

I’ve taken the structure of Carse’s Finite and Infinite games, that there are at least two types of games, finite and infinite and applied the words It, iT and it to this structure. It reflects a known finite game, iT inspires the infinite game and it is a preposition.

I feel like Robert Redford in Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid, I’m better when I move. I’m better at talking these ideas through and using magic and jokes to explain them to a live audience. Writing really isn’t my forte. As many people online have pointed out, I write contrived dialogue about convoluted ideas. Hire me to do a show and I guarantee you’ll be happy. Seriously, you cover the travel and if you aren’t 100% thrilled with my show, you get your money back. This is a limited time offer so don’t delay. OPERATORS ARE STANDING BY.

Tim, you haven’t read my book. It is hard for me to take you seriously that you want to learn from me and that you value what I think is worth teaching. Seriously. Yeah, I schlock up my teachings online. I don’t in emails with real readers. And, I don’t in the Yahoo Group 23911420.

What’s next in the cards for you and your work?

Next week, I’ll be blogging about Bag The Elephant, a new business book by Steve Kaplan.

I see a strong connection between occult practices and marketing. This sentiment was echoed by a recent email I received:

“It was Occult study that first led me to major in Marketing. The way I see it, it’s just magick by another name… I think that Marketing is simply the legitimate face of occult study - the last socially acceptable way to understand magic theory. If more occultists got involved in it, I think there would be a lot of growth in the way we interpret, present, and understand ideas.”

–Jedediah Walls, AdBusters Blackspot Marketer

I see valuable occult tactics in many business books I read. I also see that many students of the occult won’t read business books and most business people won’t read occult books. I see both perspectives as idiotic, however, a student of the occult refusing to read business books and wondering why they are struggling financially occurs to me as ridiculous because they don’t have that whole fear of eternal damnation thing keeping them from powerful tools, the only thing keeping these readers from getting more powerful is a minor discomfit in studying within the foreign language of business.

The Culting of Brands is a great crossover text.

Bag The Elephant by Steve Kaplan is the best business book I’ve read this year and the author doesn’t once abuse the word synergy. Has lighting a gold or green candle worked so far? Try a more effective money spell and learn how the money makers make money. Couple that with a general knowledge of the occult and you will be really powerful. Most self-described students of the occult are lazy thinkers who want an excuse to avoid serious science. The occult writers I respect occur to me as being scientific in their approach.

Bag The Elephant by Steve Kaplan teaches a scientific approach to improving your business through chants, ceremony and replicable action. I view this as great occult teachings.

I see you’ve edited a pseudepigraphical book for Soft Skull Press called “What Would Bill Hicks Say?” What’s that all about? Is he a hero of yours? Do you have any other upcoming projects we should know about or which might shed light on your current work?

I was angry during our last election. Bill Hicks’ voice felt more relevant than ever. I wanted to make Bill seen as relevant. Bill also instructed his listeners to evolve ideas, so I asked a question online…If Bill Hicks were alive today, What would Bill Hicks say?

Currently, I’m writing Jeff Lloyd: A Political Life. I’m hungry for more shows. I’m planning a birthday party for Kurt Vonnegut. His Birthday is 11/11. I hope readers of this will blog something about Kurt Vonnegut on his birthday. Sincerely. Thank you for your considerations.

You can visit Ben at his official site, or his weblog for more info or to speak with him directly. Thanks again to Ben for this opportunity to speak candidly with him about his work.

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