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How to Spot a Fake Shaman
Via Rev Max, here’s a really interesting website with tips about spotting people with fraudulent claims to shamanism. It’s written from the perspective of Native American shamanism, but I wonder how much of it could we apply in a broader way.
Just to warn you, this list is extraordinarily harsh. But then, that’s part of what I think makes it so very interesting. I’d like to go through a few of the more compelling items here to maybe start a directed discussion on them, but definitely check the whole thing out for yourself and see what you think.
Let’s start with this item:
Leaders who demand exorbitant lecture fees and offer to travel all over to country to spread their spiritual ‘knowledge’ should be avoided at all costs. Native American spiritual practices are specific to geography. Legitimate teachers DO NOT LEAVE THEIR COMMUNITIES. Our spiritual practices vary greatly from region to region. Anyone who is entitled to be a spiritual leader would remain in a living, thriving Native American community. Plastic Shamans who travel all over the world are usually cult leaders. They can only damage their followers spiritually, emotionally and financially.
I know this is probably going to sound drastic to a lot of people, but let’s look at what they are saying. I feel like they’re making a really interesting point about what the role of a shaman or a spiritual teacher is. Namely: they are supposed to have a relationship to their community. The whole reason they exist is to provide their community with spiritual support. The reason they wouldn’t travel is because their community needs them, and because their teachings and visions are particularly tailored and fine-tuned to meet the needs of a specific small group of people. This is very antithetical to how most of have been taught to think about spiritual teachers, but I feel like maybe there’s really something to it. Maybe we’re really missing a key component of the formula.
But then, most of us are also missing a sense of true community, which we instead seek to fill in with affinity. I can’t for the life of me imagine a spiritual teacher who lives on my street or in my little neighborhood and who everybody looked up to and relied on for spiritual support. Even though I have trouble picturing it, there’s something exciting about that possibility though. Does anybody reading this feel like they actually have a neighborhood spiritual leader, somebody who’s more a part of this kind of classical tradition?
Here’s another really interesting item from that list:
Use of the term “Shaman” alone is a good indicator of fraud. Native leaders don’t use this term. Native leaders also do not smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, use certain forms of birth control or engage in recreational drug use. ANYONE who engages in these practices while claiming to be a ‘Shaman’ is a fraud, PERIOD!!!! Native leaders are also NEVER college educated. Those of us who pursue University degrees know that we give up every attaining the highest spiritual levels. If you’re ‘Shaman’ has a degree, s/he’s a fake. This is a guaranteed fact.
This one seems like a big deal. Everybody likes to throw around the word “shaman”. It’s exciting. It’s exotic. It instills a certain kind of mystery. But is this a case of where if you can talk about it, you don’t really know? Perhaps the simple reason they don’t use that term is that it doesn’t come from their language or culture background.
I’m also intrigued by their assertion that native leaders are never college educated. I think this partly goes back to what we were discussing above, about them being needed as an integral part of their communities. College, I imagine, would remove them from that realm - if only temporarily. More than that though, I think what they’re trying to say is that spiritual authority does not come from an institution. In our culture, we tend to equate intelligence, power or authority as somehow linked to where they went to school. But for a shaman or spiritual teacher, their training or authority comes from another higher place.
Another interesting item:
Any mention of or links to Art Bell. Mention of UFO’s, Earth Changes or government cover ups.
After a while, this sort of seems like a laundry list of things which annoy this author. But I don’t think that makes it any less interesting. This one seems like it goes hand-in-hand with an earlier partial item:
Mention of a tribes “phophesies” as the reason for “sharing” spiritual knowledge.
I thought Rev Max had a really funny and apropos comment about this on another post which sparked this one. He was talking about people who utilize these types of marketing ploys in order to gain public legitimacy and sell me more books. He warns tongue-in-cheek about those who are:
endorsed as the one of whom prophecy spoke, the reincarnated elder who would at long last bring their ancient wisdom to Barnes & Noble
These all again go back to this under-examined notion that a spiritual teacher doesn’t deliver a timeless message for all people everywhere, but an intensely focused message which speaks to the spirit of a very particular time and place. I think the other thing to remember about this list too is that the person writing it is attempting to maintain the purity of their own tradition, which they fear is being diluted by inauthentic information. If you look around on the internet, it’s very easy to see why they think this. Here’s another quote to that effect:
The mixing of Native Spiritual traditions with tarot cards, runes, reiki, Australian Animal Totem readings, astrology, numerology, reflexologies or any other “-ologies”. Any attempt to assimilate Native practices with New Age philosophies amounts to nothing more than censorship! If you truly respect us, don’t contribute to the assimilation of Native American Spiritual practices into the New Age!
This again seems like one which is going to rankle a lot of people who practice syncretic spiritual traditions. What’s wrong, you ask, with mixing different traditions? Well, from the perspective of an outsider, it may seem like a perfectly natural thing to do. But from the perspective of somebody inside a tradition who is part of a historically persecuted culture, then this would likely feel like another link in the chain of imperialism. And though I may enjoy combining traditions, I have a hard time really blaming them for wanting to maintain their own cultural identity. It seems important to me that we allow traditions to remain alive and pure for those who want and need them to be.
Perhaps more than anything else on this page though, I really identify with the following information:
Don’t be afraid to ask questions!
- Be wary of anyone who says they created their own ceremony.
- If money seems to be a priority, be wary!
- If the ’spiritual leader’ uses emotionally manipulative ways to get you to donate money - I had to hitch-hike here, I slept outside last nihgh… , be wary! Check out their claims!
- No legitimate teacher would refuse to discuss what s/he will be doing, why s/he does it and where s/he gets his/her authority. If they are not forth-coming with this information, be wary!
Don’t be afraid to ask these questions or to check with the communities to verify the information:
- Where do you come from?
- How did you get your gift?
- Please tell me about your gift.
- Who talks for you?
- Where do you get your blood from?
- Who gave you the authority to teach?
- What Nation?
- What Band?
- What community?
A few of these items are even likely to be sticking points for some people. But I think the overall message is a good one: don’t be afraid to ask questions. A spiritual teacher is someone who should be able to help you ask and answer questions. Never be afraid to examine them with a critical eye, especially if they don’t encourage you to do so.
September 30th, 2005 at 12:07 pm
On community: he comes from a culture where communities are geographical. But right now, in the (possibly brief) age of the internet, we can be in communities that are spread all over the world, that are centered around common interests and not geography. Tim, this site is a neighborhood and you’re the spiritual leader.
On college: what would that guy say if someone got a college degree and then deciced to pursue the path of shamanism? Is it too late? I think a better rule is not to trust anyone who puts their degree after their name.
September 30th, 2005 at 12:22 pm
i love this list. it’s pleasantly b.s. free.
i also love the idea about a shaman being specific to a community. tho’ i don’t necesarily agree 100%, it’s certainly worth discussing. in a lot of ways, it’s how the gnostic priesthood has always been seen: individual spiritual support tailored to the experience of a single set of people. that’s definitely how it is in our lil’ congregation.
i think one of my problems with the self-proclaimed shaman set is how you’ll have eight people, all claiming to be shamans b/c they ate some mushrooms or a few peyote buttons, as though everybody who has a psychedelic experience gets a certificate granting them shaman status and listing their Official Totem Animal ™. were i native american, i’d be pretty unimpressed with this kind of silliness, so i can see where the guy is coming from.
i’ve only met an honest-to-goodness native shaman once in my life. he’d just left his tiny village in the amazon for the first time ever, as a guest of the parents of a friend of mine. the only reason he came up to the states was to visit a relative who knew my friend’s parents. he was just this little guy who smiled a lot and didn’t speak too much english! he did lead a ceremony while he was here, but i wasn’t there for it.
as a tanget, another thing that bugs me is the whole assimilation of mayan culture into the newage movement. okay, so the mayans were crazy good astronomers/astrologers with an amazing and precise calendrical system.
but you know what? they also played ballgames with human heads and sacrificed victims to their incredibly bloodthirsty gods.
and yet all of these newage people are crazy on how ‘enlightened’ the mayans were, and how they’re our star-brothers and in 2012 will travel back to earth via a galactic umbilical cord and save the day. geez, if we have to rely on the mayan culture to save the day, we are well and truly fucked.
some people even claim that the mayans ascended into galactic space on a different wavelength and that accounts for their ‘disappearance.’ but you know what? they didn’t disappear! they’re still there now! the whole disappearance thing is a silly myth. what actually seems to have happened is that their civilization lost track of sustainability and seriously fucked up their soil, so they decided to leave their cities and return to nature. if there’s any lesson we can learn from them, maybe that’s the one. maybe they were such bad-ass sociologists & climatologists that they understood that the soil on the entire planet would no longer be sustainable by 2012, and that’s their secret message.
oop, i’ve gone way off topic . . . . sorry . . . .
September 30th, 2005 at 12:55 pm
On the streets of Bombay, where I grew up, the real spiritual guides invariably blended in with the crowd, served the needy selflessly and did not take money or stage elaborate spiritual dramas. Those who set themselves up as ‘teachers’ and took money were immediately suspect as con-artists.
In this respect my present guide has not taken a single shekel from me in payment and neither does he need to earn money by selling spiritual knowledge.
Re: ’shamans’ Richard Schultes’ humility is illuminating!
September 30th, 2005 at 1:31 pm
The list is kinda specific to Native AMerican spirituality and as I understand was written to counter the incredible explosion of phony NA seminars, workshops, books, retreats, etc ad nauseum that have especially proliferated in my neck of the woods over the last 15 years, ie Northern California.
There’s some irony here since “shaman” is a siberian term and so I doubt any native american techers would call themselves that either. Probably just teacher. But I am only speculating. From teh few NAs I have known thaey are incredibly resentful about whites getting mixed up in their stuff, especially since as far as they are concerned the version of their stuff taht does get marketed to whites is phony balony and unbelieveably disrespectful by its very existence.
In a similar way, on usenet there was this lady a couple opf years back who decided she wanted to start her own voodoo group and renamed herself “Oya Pomba the Gris-gris lady.” ANd ran around trying to recruit.
So Oya is the cuban wind & cemetery goddess, Pomba is a brazilian trickster spirit closely linked to prostitutes and black magic, neither of these figures are haitian or part of any legitimate haitian lineage.
And you can’t just decide you want to start your own thing and start appropriating deities willy nilly, these traditions believe in lineage and initiation, i mean you can do what you want but its like wearing gang colors when you don’t belong, you’d better hope the real folks don’t hear what you’re walking around claiming to be or they will get pissed.
ANyway this lady didn’t really uinderstand what she was “claiming” but was eventually set straight and folded up shop.
IMHO there is nothing wrong with investigating indigenous spiritual paths but to get involved in one for real is a serious commitment so don’t claim one unless you have actually made that commitment.
September 30th, 2005 at 1:41 pm
I’m really not arguing against that. I’m simply highlighting this author’s ideas which lead to a different view from what I’m accustomed to. And I also recognize that there is something of a deficiency in my spiritual life since I don’t have people I face-to-face interact with in these areas. It’s almost all at a distance. It’s not bad or wrong, but how cool would it be to have a community right here at home? That’s what I’m after with this commentary.
September 30th, 2005 at 1:45 pm
Well, they do exist!
September 30th, 2005 at 1:54 pm
I love this part- “Is the left clicker disabled to prevent you from ’stealing’ over priced graphics?”
“I think the other thing to remember about this list too is that the person writing it is attempting to maintain the purity of their own tradition” - Exactly.
I agree with a good deal of the list, but it is a rather narrow view of what Shamanism is, perhaps it’d be best to call the practice that fits these narrow parameters “Orthodox Native American Shamanism” or something like that.
This made me wonder, would you consider Edgar Cayce to be a shaman? I think that would be an interesting topic of discussion.
JP’s comments on how ‘enlightened’ the mayans were are spot-on.
Rev Max answered my main question, is the term “Shamanism” exclusive to Native Americans? apparently not. Very interesting that it is a Siberian term.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:19 pm
I would consider Edgar Cayce to be more of a medium than a shaman, personally. I see shaman as representing a particular cultural background and technical skill set (drumming, soul retrieval, psychopomp, etc) which he didn’t really use, even if his stuff overlaps in some respects. Is there a more general term, I wonder which could realistically include shamans, mediums, etc. I’m thinking something like “spirit workers” or who knows…
September 30th, 2005 at 2:24 pm
Yeah I think yer right. There are lots of types of shamanism, its a technical term that has to do with using drumbeats to journey and work w. spirits a lot of cultures do that.
Then again I have also read critiques of Michael Harner to the effect that by trying to strip down shamanism to a “core” group of techniques and just teach those he is over-simplifying what shamanism really is and removing it from its cultural context - every culture is different.
That said he does actually have techniques to teach unlike Lynn V. ANdrews who writes books after book of soppy new-age self-actualizing nonsense. I mentioned this in another post. I mean she claims to have gone to all these different cultures and been initiated by everyone from the bantu to the jivaro but why? A lot of these cultures have long probationary periods - I mean years - before you can learn the tribal mysteries, why would they just hand over everything to some beverly hills author they only just met?
That makes me think that a lot of her shit is just fantasy - I don’t think she even went to the amazon at all, for example.
This brings up a couple of issues I think a lot about, for one, authenticity. A lot of people say castaneda’s stuff was a hoax. Does that remove its value. He did introduce a lot of useful concepts and perhaps this don juan fellow was an actual person (or spirit) he worked with as opposed to aliterary device but because of the way he presents his material its impossible to know for sure.
Also, universalism. Thats a complaint I have against the wiccans, they want to make “witchcraft” available to everyone so they have stripped it down to the least offensive and most diluted, pablum feel-good elements, and just excised everything that makes these techniques powerful. Which would be fine w. me if they called it “wicca” but instead they insist on trying to redefine and monopolize the word witch.
With some funny results, in mexico the word witchcraft is brujeria. And a brujo is someone who can work with either hand, left or right, so in addition to healing people and helping people get jobs or women get pregnant it is also not unknown to make pacts with the Devil to prevent a drug trafficker from getting popped, or to take out an enemy.
Anyway some new age publisher released a spanish edition book about new-age wicca and just used the translation “way of the brujo” or something for export to spanish language bookstores including those in mexico. Hilarity results!
All that wiccan PR about “we don’t believe in the devil, we don’t practice blood sacrifice” straight right down the drain! All because of an easily avoidable mistake based on an arrogant insistence on trying to univeralize their own vocabulary and truth claims.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:28 pm
Come to think of it that might solve a lot of society’s problems, actually.
On a completely unrelated note, Delay indicted, Miller testifies, Franklin pleads guilty.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:05 pm
we all struggle to badge or brand whatever it is we do. shamanism has become a brand and in that it will be protected by those who want to be the only ones. white people need healing too. it is the white folks who need to get back to natural healing, culturally. white folks invented and supported the cartesian duality in the first place. we now need to pop the bubble. i don`t really know what to call what i do, especially if i can`t call it shamanism because some indigenous group resents my using the term. i find it boring and restrictive to call it nlp and hypnotherapy. it`s ritual, drumming, breathing, making energy move in the systems of others, y`know, shamanism.
i travel outside my community, charge fees for my sevices and i am college educated. my clients aren`t suspicious. they tend to be grateful.
the values laid out in how to spot a fake are valid in small agrarian communities where all trade was in barter. the shaman would be fed, clothed and housed by the community, as minsters and priests are in our society.
we are returning to shamanism (or whatever you choose to call it.) because we need to. religion and psychiatry has failed and medicine is dealing drugs and surgery.
what is going to support the shaman in modern society without us charging fees? not all of us want to live in a cardboard box just because we have the gift of healing.
and i make up my own ceremonies all the time.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:09 pm
Yea, that’s why I brought up Cayce, because I don’t really consider him a shaman either, but his M.O. was similar, and by that I mean he was an “out of body healer”, for lack of a better term. I was wondering if my own precepts of what constitutes a shaman were a little too limited. I like the term spirt workers.
Here’s a lengthy academic dissertation on conflicting perspectives on shamans and shamanism. It goes through a variety of shamanic models, offering points and counter-points. Thought it may be of interest.
http://www.stanleykrippner.com/papers/conflicting_perspectives.htm
September 30th, 2005 at 4:18 pm
Yeah, I’m actually pretty sold on the term “spirit-worker” as a neutral catch-all to include things like shamans (of various traditions), priests, psychologists, witches, hypnotists, sorcerors, ritual magickians, certain types of healers, etc. Seems like it might be worthwhile to cook up a list of people who might be covered under a term like this. We could probably devise sort of a spectrum too, in terms of people who believe in actual spirits and those who focus more on the power of the mind.
There is an interesting distinction using this term at a site about “transgendered spirit workers.” I rather like what they are saying here:
Seems like a worthwhile point to explore - the hobbyists versus the people who have the calling and their lives are consumed by it.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:30 pm
the guy who put that site together is a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to the money thing. i counted five pop-ups when i clicked onto his site. nothing is free. the na indians know that. they are traders. value for value. my clients are glad that i use paypay, it makes it convenient for them and me when i`m hosting seminars.
and about community. i just finished writing about community on my blog….our (euro-cenrtic,technological..) society has lost the sense of community with the expanding of our villages into towns and cities. community now comes in the form of activities and pastimes. the people we associate with there become our community. this chunking down of affiliation lets us create that sense of familiarity that living in a village of less than a hundred people would have naturally allowed.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:32 pm
alistair: this article was specifically about people who rename themselves “Alistair eagle feather three-testes” and then start charging people big $$$ for phony Native American ceremonies.
From the POV of the authors it is disrespectful to misrepresent yourself as a representative of a tribal tradition when you are not. The NAs have had so much stolen from them already its easy to see why they don’t want their spiritual traditions stolen as well.
FWIW shaman is a siberian word that has become a generic term for a broad set of cross-cultural practices, so technixally NA spirtual practitioners aren’t necessarily shamen either (in fact many aren’t).
The specific beliefs and practices of North AMerica’s indigenous groups vary from tribe to tribe. Some “journey” some do not, some drum, some do not etc.
AMong a certain segment of priveleged Californians the term “shaman” has become synonymous with AMerican Indian, this ignorance has been exploited by a lot of frauds who are very disrespectful to NAs in general, I beleive tahts what the article was addressing.
Then again that hold true in one culture maybe not in another. FOr example in almost all of the AFrican Traditional religions it is incredibly common to charge money (even hundreds $$$) for spiritual work, there is no particular emphasis placed on being descended from the african tribes themselves (good thing too cause they’re 99% hispanic!), its not uncommon to travel for a job, etc. Those folks call themsleves witchdoctors not shamen but same difference as far as I can tell.
FWIW I agree with just about everything in your post, to wit: whites need healing, there’s nothing wrong with charging money $$$, its OK to make up cermonies etc. Just don’t pretend its a secret Lakota prophecy or whatnot.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:34 pm
and i didn`t see your last posting tim. the calling to healing and having my life wrecked so that i have no choice but to be a healer. christ, i thought i just had bad luck in my life!
i am reconciled to the fact that this is my life`s calling now,but i struggled for nearly 40 years to be anything but.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:36 pm
Actually, that page is posted on a free server, hence the pop-ups. So in fact it’s not hypocritical at all. And in any event, this seems to have really touched a nerve for you Alistair. I’m glad it’s generating such heated feelings and conversation. That was in fact my goal.
I agree with Max’s point though, and I think you’re taking this far too broadly:
September 30th, 2005 at 4:39 pm
rev, thanks for the clarification. i guess i`m sensitive to being called a fake anything, considering what i`ve been through to get to what i do. i`ll drop the three testes thing from now on!
September 30th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
I would not want you misinterpret what I’m saying alistair.
I have respect for what you do and can definitely sympathize with being “called” and resisting it and reconciling to it and having that resistance almost wreck your life and now struggling with the ethics of working with people or charging $$$ or feeling like thats something that does or does not need to be justified.
The article was just saying “Hey, in our beliefs, only members of our tribe should be into this stuff, please don’t appropriate our culture and fantabulize and repackage and try to sell it to people who aren’t in our tribe, especially if you aren’t either.”
September 30th, 2005 at 4:43 pm
If what you do helps people then its not fake and you should charge whatever the market will bear in my opinion.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:49 pm
You could come up with a new term for what you do, couldn’t you, alistair? Would that be so terrible? NLP and hypnotherapy sounds boring–cool, then you don’t need to call it that. If calling it shamanism works for you, whatever. Use it.
Tim: There’s a similar list that the Radhasoami’s (who have all sorts of controversies and hucksters in their woodshed) are told to use for determining whether someone is a “true” guru/master or not. There’s plenty that’s culturally and path-specific, but the first thing on their list I think is pretty on the money and it is:
1. True masters never charge money for their services in any form
(this, of course, includes membership or initiation). Nor do they
live off the offerings of their disciples. True masters are
self-supporting.
Another marker of the true masters is that they don’t advertise. Now, what exactly they have in mind when the say “advertise” is open to interpretation, but I think if it’s not being self-aggrandizing and not tooting your own horn or trying to win converts, then that guidepost also feels pretty solid and it’s similar to Max’s list for Shamans.
And Tim, just cuz I think this dead guy is pretty awesome (and one of the few legit masters of the Radhasoami tradition) I’m gonna give you two links that you might find interesting about Baba Faqir Chand:
http://santmat-meditation.net/faqir/faqir-home.html
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/chand.html
I’m not a satsangi or disciple, I just admire this guy immensely.
September 30th, 2005 at 5:05 pm
This page actually has some interesting stuff on money and spirit work:
http://www.shamanic.net/articles/spiritmoney.html
And I rather like this:
September 30th, 2005 at 5:27 pm
In the African Traditional Religious paradigm you pay for EVERYTHING. Even if you are just doing something for yourself you still have to present money to the spirit. If you don’t they will simply ignore your request.
If someone else is doing something for you, they leave the $ with the spirit overnight and pocket it the next morning. If you are doing something for someone else, same deal.
But if you don’t pay the spirits will flat out refuse to do anything. They don’t work for free, its that simple.
here’s an interesting quote:
http://www.widdershins.org/vol7iss1/01.htm
I have never heard that thing about buirning money and certainly have no intention of doing it. But, money is a flow, I have often given my last $5 to a bum and then get invited to dinner and get a job offer that same night.
In the african witchcraft worldview money is represented by a goddess who also represents sex, honey, rivers, streams, water, flirtatiousness, lust.
So all thes ethings go together. I had a waitress friend who spilled money down the front of her apronb where she kept all her change and got more tips that night then ever before in her life - completely by accident.
If you want money, put a jar in a dark corner and fill it with change. Pour honey on it and light a green candle. Like attracts like, you are signalling to the universe that you are open to the flow and willing to receive more.
When you are single and desparate, no woman will talk to you. As soon as you get involved with someone you have to turn them away - they think that guy must have something. Same with money.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:02 pm
the free site is still part of the value system that we all call commerce. the hypocritical bit is stretching a bit but it`s still biting the hand that feeds when someone is so critical of the profit approach to healing and yet uses some of the means he`s criticising. i realise that the man is protecting the culture of na indians but i don`t think that those who are taking on the na indian culture as a marketing mechanism are detracting from the real work that any healer takes on.
example; i am an englishman who loves soccer and still plays twice a week. i don`t resent north american culture taking up the game at a professional level and using the same rules, balls, uniforms and equipment and broadcasting it on t.v.. a rising tide is raises all ships. americans playing “my” game doesn`t stop the enjoyment of game for anyone, in fact it helps the game perpetuate around the world.
i think traditional shamanism and healing of all types is helped by more people bringing thier skills to the field. the field it`s self rejects the incompetent. the competent go ahead and heal, no matter what they call themselves.
does one have to be indigenous to the culture that the healing art comes from to practice it?
do all psychiatrists have to be german coke addicts?
do all soccer players have to be english?
September 30th, 2005 at 6:30 pm
Oh hoh, therin lies the rub alistair
Some fields reject the incompetent and the fraudulent
other do not
I can see why the native americans are frustrated. Their religions face problems that other religions do not.
The african religions are decentralized and have no scriptures but any phony who tried to set themselves up in business to con people would get taken out pretty fast - it happens a lot because of all the competition for clients
Same with NLP and hypnotherapy, if you have the training and are good you probably get a lot of word of mouth business, if you are an amateur just out to feed your ego and con people you would probably close up shop again pretty fast
But the native americans are in a funny position. They lost almost all their land, there kids can’t speak their languages, and they don’t even sell their services to outsiders at all, at least as far as i can tell
But since there is so little good info out about it there is absolutely nothing to stop any self-proclaimed new-age charlatan from ripping their culture off wholesale and selling it not as a healer or as a shaman but just as a life-style wish-fulfillment fantasy new age ye olde gift shoppe type phenomenon.
And its not like the NA spiritual pracitioners are out there competing for clients they are simply trying to keep their own culture pure and to themselves.
It depends on the the culture I think.
In African traditional religions often the belief exists that the power to heal comes from the spirits themselves and these choose who they want to work with. There is seemingly no rhyme or reason to who they chose but it has to be respected.
On the other hand it sounds like the Native Americans feel like their own thing is too diluted already.
I mean there is a difference. The african religions spread all over the world with slavery and took over entire continents - south and central america, the carribean, etc.
On the other hnd the indians and their gods lost their land, are having a hard time passing it on in any sort of pure form, and are just trying to preserve what little spiritual turf they have left.
So if the indian ancestors say “no white new agers” I can certainly see why they feel that way.
I much the same way cultures that are under siege will often refuse to teach their fighting arts to outsiders. Then when the culture is feeling expansive again all of a sudden now hey, its ok for europeans to learn about pentak dilat or escrima or whatever.
The culture is strong enough to share, maybe? Maybe the native americans feel like the risk of having their thing diluted is much worse than the possible benefit of sharing.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:35 pm
I think you see this process in creative work too. I’ve seen people start up blogs and they share their creative work at first, until they start getting feedback of many different kinds. For some people this energizes them and allows them to expand what they are doing. But for many people who are in a position where they are struggling creatively to express something, this type of interaction can scare them off into shutting down and not sharing with anyone else.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:36 pm
In this part of the world, those Aboriginal people involved in “shamanism” do not use the term, but rather more commonly “healer” or “speaker” or just elder - but the DO refuse to discuss it with outsiders. In fact no legitimate “shaman” would CONSIDER for a moment telling you their credentials or the origins of their practice. It’s none of your business. They’ll tell you family and clan and nation, but that’s all you’re going to get.
“Native leaders also do not smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, use certain forms of birth control or engage in recreational drug use. ANYONE who engages in these practices while claiming to be a ‘Shaman’ is a fraud, PERIOD!!!”
Of course many of them drink socially and smoke. Tobacco, even daily use cigarettes, is often considered a kind of ambient sacrament.
As for creating one’s own ceremony, well, every instance is specific. There are general forms and protocols to be followed, but often these ceremonies are in the forms of family meetings, and a lot of what happens within the context of tradition is pretty extemporaneous and original. Also a lot of it is personal, and rooted to a specific location or practice that has meaning for the individual, and can therefore be considered an “original ceremony”.
While I respect the idea of where Max is going with this post - beware of pop psych in the guise of First Nations tradition - much of the “watch list” is misleading and uninformed.
“Native leaders are also NEVER college educated” - This statement is idiotic, racist, and wildly inaccurate.
“Legitimate teachers DO NOT LEAVE THEIR COMMUNITIES. ” Well, here the government pays them to go into other communities and work with their traditions to record, restore and share traditional healing.
It seems to me that Max is showing very little respect, and demonstrating less knowledge, of authentic First Nations spiritual practice. I understand the desire to separate hype from reality, but all this post does is muddy the waters.
J+
September 30th, 2005 at 6:39 pm
Uh, Jordan… Max didn’t write that. Sorry if I worded the attribution of where I found it in a confusing way.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:49 pm
LOL. OK, Jordan, yer entitled to your opinion.
It seems to me that it should have been obvious to you that I am not the author of this piece, do not claim to be the author of this piece, have nowhere claimed the expertise to evaluate the claims made therein, and have largely restricted my commentary to a comparative analysis of paradigms I can claim legitimately some expertise in (i.e., ATRs) , but please don’t let that stop you from calling me an idiotic racist again as I find this to be strangely refreshing.
September 30th, 2005 at 7:07 pm
Gak! You know I re-read that thing again and it really does look like you’re saying Max wrote it. So I really, really apologize. Now, I do NOT think Max is an idiotic racist, I said
“Native leaders are also NEVER college educated” - This statement is idiotic, racist, and wildly inaccurate.
And I stand by it. It’s a monumentally stupid thing to say. A thing that Max did not say. Max was the non-sayer of this stupid thing and in way can be held accountable for it’s stupidity, because he didn’t say it, because Max is not an idiotic racist.
He is, however, clearly a public menace, a scoundrel, and likely a ne’er do well, as are all my favourite people.
Sorry Max. Blame Tim.
September 30th, 2005 at 7:35 pm
Regardless, the point of this whole thing was to start a discussion about this content, and look at what might be right or wrong about it. So it seems like we’ve been pretty successful doing just that.
September 30th, 2005 at 7:37 pm
No probs. Here’s who said it FWIW:
http://shameons.bravepages.com/
I should add that I am largely sympathetic to this perspective and found it while googling the phrase “Lynne V. Andrews fraud hoax fake native american.”
September 30th, 2005 at 8:28 pm
http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/index.htm
I see many parallels with Wicca/indigenous witchcraft and gnosis/fundamentalism
September 30th, 2005 at 9:23 pm
I am always wary of anyone whose title has the word “sham” in it… unless it’s Sham 69, one of the greatest oi punk bands of all time…
September 30th, 2005 at 9:42 pm
Cockney Rejects & 4Skins were pretty great too
September 30th, 2005 at 10:39 pm
Oi!
October 1st, 2005 at 12:39 am
stranglers……..
October 1st, 2005 at 4:59 am
stiff little fingers!
October 4th, 2005 at 4:38 pm
About Wiccans: whover posted this is obviously not one. True Wiccans aren’t diluting anything, we are in fact teaching the Craft as it was taught to us. I am Gardnerian and I teach the tradition that Gardner was initiated into and later reformed. No, we don’t worship the devil, but our God has horns. Big Ones
True Wiccans do NOT mix the tradition with elements from other religions such as the various Native American tribal traditions. I grew up close to Indian Country in New England and have complete respect for Native Ways.
Be Blessed,
Flora Green
October 4th, 2005 at 4:58 pm
Flora, thanks for your comments. I think you’re misinterpreting what Max was saying in relation to that Wicca comment. What he meant, as far as I understand his background, was that witchcraft in other (non-European or at least non-Gardnerian) parts of the world typically DOES involve working with gods and spirits in such a way that Wiccans would more than likely balk at.
Also, I’m not an expert in the history of it, but from what I understand Wicca is a reconstructionist religion based more on literature, archaeological speculation and modified esoteric systems, such as the Golden Dawn, OTO, Thelema. There is very little - if any - evidence (that I’ve come across anyway) to suggest that Gardner’s Wicca actually has any roots in traditional European witchcraft.
I highly recommend checking out these connections in more detail as they will lead you into some interesting territory:
http://egina.blogspot.com/2005/02/are-witches-gnostic.html
http://www.paganlibrary.com/reference/true_history_witchcraft.php
However, as I said, I’m no expert on this. And I’m happy to be proven wrong on any of the above points. Nor am I interested in trying to diminish anyone’s religious practices in this area. Wicca may be it’s own thing and may be valuable, but I think the comment about it was accurate in that it doesn’t share as many elements of “traditional” witchcraft as people like to imagine.
October 10th, 2005 at 11:43 am
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I just found something that I think adds an interesting layer into our recent debates on what exactly constitutes shamanism. I realize this pers […]