I just found something that I think adds an interesting layer into our recent debates on what exactly constitutes shamanism. I realize this pers [...]

Also, I’m not an expert in the history of it, but from what I understand Wicca is a reconstructionist religion based more on literature, archaeological speculation and modified esoteric systems, such as the Golden Dawn, OTO, Thelema. There is very little - if any - evidence (that I’ve come across anyway) to suggest that Gardner’s Wicca actually has any roots in traditional European witchcraft.

I highly recommend checking out these connections in more detail as they will lead you into some interesting territory:

http://egina.blogspot.com/2005/02/are-witches-gnostic.html
http://www.paganlibrary.com/reference/true_history_witchcraft.php

However, as I said, I’m no expert on this. And I’m happy to be proven wrong on any of the above points. Nor am I interested in trying to diminish anyone’s religious practices in this area. Wicca may be it’s own thing and may be valuable, but I think the comment about it was accurate in that it doesn’t share as many elements of “traditional” witchcraft as people like to imagine.

True Wiccans do NOT mix the tradition with elements from other religions such as the various Native American tribal traditions. I grew up close to Indian Country in New England and have complete respect for Native Ways.

Be Blessed,
Flora Green

Sham 69, one of the greatest oi punk bands of all time…

Cockney Rejects & 4Skins were pretty great too

The process is ultimately intended to supplant Indians, even in areas of their own customs and spirituality. In the end, non-Indians will have complete power to define what is and is not Indian, even for Indians. We are talking here about an absolute ideological/conceptual subordination in addition to the total physical subordination we already experience. When this happens, the last vestiges of real Indian society and Indian rights will disappear. Non-Indians will then “own” our heritage and ideas as thoroughly as they now claim to own our land and resources.

-Pam Colorado (Oneida)
“The Great Pretenders: Further Reflections on Whiteshamanism” by Wendy Rose

http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/index.htm

I see many parallels with Wicca/indigenous witchcraft and gnosis/fundamentalism

As strong Native American women, we are tired of being silenced by sugary-sweet Nuage apologists, so we’re exercising OUR right to free speech! We’re sounding the alarm on Nuage swindles!

Their victims fall into two categories: the greedy and the gullible. The greedy seek to make a bundle and the gullible believe the most fantastic stories. There’s a lot of Nu-agers exhibiting those qualities, so they are targeted by con-artists. Most of the perpetrators listed have been doing this for years. Many of them hang around legitimate Native communities like sharks, looking for any little detail that can make them look credible and help them polish their cons. They’re all very, very good at what they do, which is LIE!!!

Everyone of the women on this Wall of Shame are fully knowledgeable of Native American objections to their “teachings”, yet they continue to prostitute Native American spiritual ways for their own selfish gain: either personal or financial. They have shown no regard for the spiritual well being of either the Native American people objecting to them or the Nuagers whose money they take. They have repeatedly ignored the many protests from Native Amercans all over North America telling them over and over again that they find their tactics objectionable and urging them to stop the co-opting their indigenous spiritual traditions. But Nuage profiteers just don’t listen.

Because they are no threat to the status quo, white society will never prosecute them. So, the only way to stop them is to EXPOSE them! In an effort to inform a gullible public, We have assembled this collection of female con-artists. I believe that to educate the public about the methods of swindlers is to empower them to make informed decisions. If you are a Nuager or a seeker, beware! The following Nuage gurus are making fortunes from cultural theft and racist demeaning practices:

http://shameons.bravepages.com/

I should add that I am largely sympathetic to this perspective and found it while googling the phrase “Lynne V. Andrews fraud hoax fake native american.”

“Native leaders are also NEVER college educated” - This statement is idiotic, racist, and wildly inaccurate.

And I stand by it. It’s a monumentally stupid thing to say. A thing that Max did not say. Max was the non-sayer of this stupid thing and in way can be held accountable for it’s stupidity, because he didn’t say it, because Max is not an idiotic racist.

He is, however, clearly a public menace, a scoundrel, and likely a ne’er do well, as are all my favourite people.

Sorry Max. Blame Tim.

It seems to me that Max is showing very little respect, and demonstrating less knowledge, of authentic First Nations spiritual practice. I understand the desire to separate hype from reality, but all this post does is muddy the waters.

LOL. OK, Jordan, yer entitled to your opinion.

It seems to me that it should have been obvious to you that I am not the author of this piece, do not claim to be the author of this piece, have nowhere claimed the expertise to evaluate the claims made therein, and have largely restricted my commentary to a comparative analysis of paradigms I can claim legitimately some expertise in (i.e., ATRs) , but please don’t let that stop you from calling me an idiotic racist again as I find this to be strangely refreshing.

“Native leaders also do not smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, use certain forms of birth control or engage in recreational drug use. ANYONE who engages in these practices while claiming to be a ‘Shaman’ is a fraud, PERIOD!!!”

Of course many of them drink socially and smoke. Tobacco, even daily use cigarettes, is often considered a kind of ambient sacrament.

As for creating one’s own ceremony, well, every instance is specific. There are general forms and protocols to be followed, but often these ceremonies are in the forms of family meetings, and a lot of what happens within the context of tradition is pretty extemporaneous and original. Also a lot of it is personal, and rooted to a specific location or practice that has meaning for the individual, and can therefore be considered an “original ceremony”.

While I respect the idea of where Max is going with this post - beware of pop psych in the guise of First Nations tradition - much of the “watch list” is misleading and uninformed.

“Native leaders are also NEVER college educated” - This statement is idiotic, racist, and wildly inaccurate.

“Legitimate teachers DO NOT LEAVE THEIR COMMUNITIES. ” Well, here the government pays them to go into other communities and work with their traditions to record, restore and share traditional healing.

It seems to me that Max is showing very little respect, and demonstrating less knowledge, of authentic First Nations spiritual practice. I understand the desire to separate hype from reality, but all this post does is muddy the waters.

J+

the field it`s self rejects the incompetent.

Oh hoh, therin lies the rub alistair

Some fields reject the incompetent and the fraudulent

other do not

I can see why the native americans are frustrated. Their religions face problems that other religions do not.

The african religions are decentralized and have no scriptures but any phony who tried to set themselves up in business to con people would get taken out pretty fast - it happens a lot because of all the competition for clients

Same with NLP and hypnotherapy, if you have the training and are good you probably get a lot of word of mouth business, if you are an amateur just out to feed your ego and con people you would probably close up shop again pretty fast

But the native americans are in a funny position. They lost almost all their land, there kids can’t speak their languages, and they don’t even sell their services to outsiders at all, at least as far as i can tell

But since there is so little good info out about it there is absolutely nothing to stop any self-proclaimed new-age charlatan from ripping their culture off wholesale and selling it not as a healer or as a shaman but just as a life-style wish-fulfillment fantasy new age ye olde gift shoppe type phenomenon.

And its not like the NA spiritual pracitioners are out there competing for clients they are simply trying to keep their own culture pure and to themselves.

does one have to be indigenous to the culture that the healing art comes from to practice it?

It depends on the the culture I think.

In African traditional religions often the belief exists that the power to heal comes from the spirits themselves and these choose who they want to work with. There is seemingly no rhyme or reason to who they chose but it has to be respected.

On the other hand it sounds like the Native Americans feel like their own thing is too diluted already.

I mean there is a difference. The african religions spread all over the world with slavery and took over entire continents - south and central america, the carribean, etc.

On the other hnd the indians and their gods lost their land, are having a hard time passing it on in any sort of pure form, and are just trying to preserve what little spiritual turf they have left.

So if the indian ancestors say “no white new agers” I can certainly see why they feel that way.

I much the same way cultures that are under siege will often refuse to teach their fighting arts to outsiders. Then when the culture is feeling expansive again all of a sudden now hey, its ok for europeans to learn about pentak dilat or escrima or whatever.

The culture is strong enough to share, maybe? Maybe the native americans feel like the risk of having their thing diluted is much worse than the possible benefit of sharing.

If someone else is doing something for you, they leave the $ with the spirit overnight and pocket it the next morning. If you are doing something for someone else, same deal.

But if you don’t pay the spirits will flat out refuse to do anything. They don’t work for free, its that simple.

here’s an interesting quote:

Just attempting to resist poverty, for example, will not make you more affluent. In fact, it will only make the situation worse. As I say earlier, I think of money and prosperity as a flow. It is like the tide, going out and coming in. You make some money, it comes in, and then you buy something or pay bills and it goes out. The good thing in this pattern is that when the money goes out, it creates a vacuum, to be filled again. Money must come back in, just like the tide. In nature, when something ends, something else begins, and the tide is a good metaphor for how I see energy moving….

Another thing to realize is that we can often manifest a thing without having to go through the money step — focus on getting the thing itself, rather than the money for it. For instance, suppose you say “I want enough money to buy a used car.” Your next step is to decide what car you want, what model, color, options and so on. Find out the range of prices that the car sells for, and look at the ones for sale. Focus on the car itself, rather than on the money part. Do not worry about the money. I have found that if you commit to something, the money will show up, or the thing will occur in such a way that you don’t need the money — like someone will give it to you. Or someone will sell it to you for a ridiculous price. I have had this happen several times in my life!

There are a few other small points. I learned from my Santeria friends to kiss and bless my money as I spend it. When I send it away like this, like an old friend it will come back to me. I also cannot stress enough the importance of lighting candles with intention and burning your money (or a small piece or facsimile). I use fake or play money symbolically all the time for this. Like attracts like. I leave my purse open most of the time because I want money to be get in as well as get out. I have given my last change to someone on the street at times just to get that flow started again.

http://www.widdershins.org/vol7iss1/01.htm

I have never heard that thing about buirning money and certainly have no intention of doing it. But, money is a flow, I have often given my last $5 to a bum and then get invited to dinner and get a job offer that same night.

In the african witchcraft worldview money is represented by a goddess who also represents sex, honey, rivers, streams, water, flirtatiousness, lust.

So all thes ethings go together. I had a waitress friend who spilled money down the front of her apronb where she kept all her change and got more tips that night then ever before in her life - completely by accident.

If you want money, put a jar in a dark corner and fill it with change. Pour honey on it and light a green candle. Like attracts like, you are signalling to the universe that you are open to the flow and willing to receive more.

When you are single and desparate, no woman will talk to you. As soon as you get involved with someone you have to turn them away - they think that guy must have something. Same with money.

http://www.shamanic.net/articles/spiritmoney.html

Within the cultural paradigm of which I come, that of the indigenous North Americans, the thought of ‘paying’ for a Ceremonial never comes up because the thought of NOT paying is never considered, so there is never the need to put a ‘price tag’ on anything of a spiritual nature.

And I rather like this:

I will often present a guide for payment in an evening’s Ceremony: How much would you spend on a fine evening’s entertainment? A movie and dinner? A night out partying at a club? Going to a theatrical stage production? Determine this first. Now, if what you have received in this Ceremony is purely entertainment, place an equivalent amount in the basket. If you have received something more than entertainment, something which is enlightening and world changing, place an amount in the basket in accordance of value of that which you have received. If you feel ‘less than’ from your experience, take something out of the basket and place it in your pocket!

Tim: There’s a similar list that the Radhasoami’s (who have all sorts of controversies and hucksters in their woodshed) are told to use for determining whether someone is a “true” guru/master or not. There’s plenty that’s culturally and path-specific, but the first thing on their list I think is pretty on the money and it is:

1. True masters never charge money for their services in any form
(this, of course, includes membership or initiation). Nor do they
live off the offerings of their disciples. True masters are
self-supporting.

Another marker of the true masters is that they don’t advertise. Now, what exactly they have in mind when the say “advertise” is open to interpretation, but I think if it’s not being self-aggrandizing and not tooting your own horn or trying to win converts, then that guidepost also feels pretty solid and it’s similar to Max’s list for Shamans.

And Tim, just cuz I think this dead guy is pretty awesome (and one of the few legit masters of the Radhasoami tradition) I’m gonna give you two links that you might find interesting about Baba Faqir Chand:

http://santmat-meditation.net/faqir/faqir-home.html
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/chand.html

I’m not a satsangi or disciple, I just admire this guy immensely.

i guess i`m sensitive to being called a fake anything, considering what i`ve been through to get to what i do.

If what you do helps people then its not fake and you should charge whatever the market will bear in my opinion.

I have respect for what you do and can definitely sympathize with being “called” and resisting it and reconciling to it and having that resistance almost wreck your life and now struggling with the ethics of working with people or charging $$$ or feeling like thats something that does or does not need to be justified.

The article was just saying “Hey, in our beliefs, only members of our tribe should be into this stuff, please don’t appropriate our culture and fantabulize and repackage and try to sell it to people who aren’t in our tribe, especially if you aren’t either.”

the guy who put that site together is a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to the money thing. i counted five pop-ups when i clicked onto his site.

Actually, that page is posted on a free server, hence the pop-ups. So in fact it’s not hypocritical at all. And in any event, this seems to have really touched a nerve for you Alistair. I’m glad it’s generating such heated feelings and conversation. That was in fact my goal.

I agree with Max’s point though, and I think you’re taking this far too broadly:

FWIW I agree with just about everything in your post, to wit: whites need healing, there’s nothing wrong with charging money $$$, its OK to make up cermonies etc. Just don’t pretend its a secret Lakota prophecy or whatnot.

From the POV of the authors it is disrespectful to misrepresent yourself as a representative of a tribal tradition when you are not. The NAs have had so much stolen from them already its easy to see why they don’t want their spiritual traditions stolen as well.

FWIW shaman is a siberian word that has become a generic term for a broad set of cross-cultural practices, so technixally NA spirtual practitioners aren’t necessarily shamen either (in fact many aren’t).

The specific beliefs and practices of North AMerica’s indigenous groups vary from tribe to tribe. Some “journey” some do not, some drum, some do not etc.

AMong a certain segment of priveleged Californians the term “shaman” has become synonymous with AMerican Indian, this ignorance has been exploited by a lot of frauds who are very disrespectful to NAs in general, I beleive tahts what the article was addressing.

Then again that hold true in one culture maybe not in another. FOr example in almost all of the AFrican Traditional religions it is incredibly common to charge money (even hundreds $$$) for spiritual work, there is no particular emphasis placed on being descended from the african tribes themselves (good thing too cause they’re 99% hispanic!), its not uncommon to travel for a job, etc. Those folks call themsleves witchdoctors not shamen but same difference as far as I can tell.

FWIW I agree with just about everything in your post, to wit: whites need healing, there’s nothing wrong with charging money $$$, its OK to make up cermonies etc. Just don’t pretend its a secret Lakota prophecy or whatnot.

There is an interesting distinction using this term at a site about “transgendered spirit workers.” I rather like what they are saying here:

To be a spirit-worker, to be called by the Gods and/or spirits to destroy your life and be reborn to serve others, to be ridden by spirits, to lose everything and gain this knowledge….that’s a tiny percentage of any population. I’m not talking about the folks who take a weekend class and shake a rattle, the ones who do it part-time, the ones who can say no to it. I’m talking about the ones who have no choice, for whom spirit-work has eaten our entire lives, the ones for whom saying no is impossible because we are already bound by this calling…

Seems like a worthwhile point to explore - the hobbyists versus the people who have the calling and their lives are consumed by it.

Here’s a lengthy academic dissertation on conflicting perspectives on shamans and shamanism. It goes through a variety of shamanic models, offering points and counter-points. Thought it may be of interest.
http://www.stanleykrippner.com/papers/conflicting_perspectives.htm

they also played ballgames with human heads and sacrificed victims to their incredibly bloodthirsty gods.

Come to think of it that might solve a lot of society’s problems, actually.

On a completely unrelated note, Delay indicted, Miller testifies, Franklin pleads guilty.

I agree with a good deal of the list, but it is a rather narrow view of what Shamanism is, perhaps it’d be best to call the practice that fits these narrow parameters “Orthodox Native American Shamanism” or something like that.

Yeah I think yer right. There are lots of types of shamanism, its a technical term that has to do with using drumbeats to journey and work w. spirits a lot of cultures do that.

Then again I have also read critiques of Michael Harner to the effect that by trying to strip down shamanism to a “core” group of techniques and just teach those he is over-simplifying what shamanism really is and removing it from its cultural context - every culture is different.

That said he does actually have techniques to teach unlike Lynn V. ANdrews who writes books after book of soppy new-age self-actualizing nonsense. I mentioned this in another post. I mean she claims to have gone to all these different cultures and been initiated by everyone from the bantu to the jivaro but why? A lot of these cultures have long probationary periods - I mean years - before you can learn the tribal mysteries, why would they just hand over everything to some beverly hills author they only just met?

That makes me think that a lot of her shit is just fantasy - I don’t think she even went to the amazon at all, for example.

This brings up a couple of issues I think a lot about, for one, authenticity. A lot of people say castaneda’s stuff was a hoax. Does that remove its value. He did introduce a lot of useful concepts and perhaps this don juan fellow was an actual person (or spirit) he worked with as opposed to aliterary device but because of the way he presents his material its impossible to know for sure.

Also, universalism. Thats a complaint I have against the wiccans, they want to make “witchcraft” available to everyone so they have stripped it down to the least offensive and most diluted, pablum feel-good elements, and just excised everything that makes these techniques powerful. Which would be fine w. me if they called it “wicca” but instead they insist on trying to redefine and monopolize the word witch.

With some funny results, in mexico the word witchcraft is brujeria. And a brujo is someone who can work with either hand, left or right, so in addition to healing people and helping people get jobs or women get pregnant it is also not unknown to make pacts with the Devil to prevent a drug trafficker from getting popped, or to take out an enemy.

Anyway some new age publisher released a spanish edition book about new-age wicca and just used the translation “way of the brujo” or something for export to spanish language bookstores including those in mexico. Hilarity results!

All that wiccan PR about “we don’t believe in the devil, we don’t practice blood sacrifice” straight right down the drain! All because of an easily avoidable mistake based on an arrogant insistence on trying to univeralize their own vocabulary and truth claims.

“I think the other thing to remember about this list too is that the person writing it is attempting to maintain the purity of their own tradition” - Exactly.

I agree with a good deal of the list, but it is a rather narrow view of what Shamanism is, perhaps it’d be best to call the practice that fits these narrow parameters “Orthodox Native American Shamanism” or something like that.

This made me wonder, would you consider Edgar Cayce to be a shaman? I think that would be an interesting topic of discussion.

JP’s comments on how ‘enlightened’ the mayans were are spot-on.

Rev Max answered my main question, is the term “Shamanism” exclusive to Native Americans? apparently not. Very interesting that it is a Siberian term.

how cool would it be to have a community right here at home?

Well, they do exist!

he comes from a culture where communities are geographical. But right now, in the (possibly brief) age of the internet, we can be in communities that are spread all over the world, that are centered around common interests and not geography.

I’m really not arguing against that. I’m simply highlighting this author’s ideas which lead to a different view from what I’m accustomed to. And I also recognize that there is something of a deficiency in my spiritual life since I don’t have people I face-to-face interact with in these areas. It’s almost all at a distance. It’s not bad or wrong, but how cool would it be to have a community right here at home? That’s what I’m after with this commentary.

There’s some irony here since “shaman” is a siberian term and so I doubt any native american techers would call themselves that either. Probably just teacher. But I am only speculating. From teh few NAs I have known thaey are incredibly resentful about whites getting mixed up in their stuff, especially since as far as they are concerned the version of their stuff taht does get marketed to whites is phony balony and unbelieveably disrespectful by its very existence.

In a similar way, on usenet there was this lady a couple opf years back who decided she wanted to start her own voodoo group and renamed herself “Oya Pomba the Gris-gris lady.” ANd ran around trying to recruit.

So Oya is the cuban wind & cemetery goddess, Pomba is a brazilian trickster spirit closely linked to prostitutes and black magic, neither of these figures are haitian or part of any legitimate haitian lineage.

And you can’t just decide you want to start your own thing and start appropriating deities willy nilly, these traditions believe in lineage and initiation, i mean you can do what you want but its like wearing gang colors when you don’t belong, you’d better hope the real folks don’t hear what you’re walking around claiming to be or they will get pissed.

ANyway this lady didn’t really uinderstand what she was “claiming” but was eventually set straight and folded up shop.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with investigating indigenous spiritual paths but to get involved in one for real is a serious commitment so don’t claim one unless you have actually made that commitment.

i also love the idea about a shaman being specific to a community. tho’ i don’t necesarily agree 100%, it’s certainly worth discussing. in a lot of ways, it’s how the gnostic priesthood has always been seen: individual spiritual support tailored to the experience of a single set of people. that’s definitely how it is in our lil’ congregation.

i think one of my problems with the self-proclaimed shaman set is how you’ll have eight people, all claiming to be shamans b/c they ate some mushrooms or a few peyote buttons, as though everybody who has a psychedelic experience gets a certificate granting them shaman status and listing their Official Totem Animal ™. were i native american, i’d be pretty unimpressed with this kind of silliness, so i can see where the guy is coming from.

i’ve only met an honest-to-goodness native shaman once in my life. he’d just left his tiny village in the amazon for the first time ever, as a guest of the parents of a friend of mine. the only reason he came up to the states was to visit a relative who knew my friend’s parents. he was just this little guy who smiled a lot and didn’t speak too much english! he did lead a ceremony while he was here, but i wasn’t there for it.

as a tanget, another thing that bugs me is the whole assimilation of mayan culture into the newage movement. okay, so the mayans were crazy good astronomers/astrologers with an amazing and precise calendrical system.

but you know what? they also played ballgames with human heads and sacrificed victims to their incredibly bloodthirsty gods.

and yet all of these newage people are crazy on how ‘enlightened’ the mayans were, and how they’re our star-brothers and in 2012 will travel back to earth via a galactic umbilical cord and save the day. geez, if we have to rely on the mayan culture to save the day, we are well and truly fucked.

some people even claim that the mayans ascended into galactic space on a different wavelength and that accounts for their ‘disappearance.’ but you know what? they didn’t disappear! they’re still there now! the whole disappearance thing is a silly myth. what actually seems to have happened is that their civilization lost track of sustainability and seriously fucked up their soil, so they decided to leave their cities and return to nature. if there’s any lesson we can learn from them, maybe that’s the one. maybe they were such bad-ass sociologists & climatologists that they understood that the soil on the entire planet would no longer be sustainable by 2012, and that’s their secret message.

oop, i’ve gone way off topic . . . . sorry . . . .

On college: what would that guy say if someone got a college degree and then deciced to pursue the path of shamanism? Is it too late? I think a better rule is not to trust anyone who puts their degree after their name.