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Christians Against The Senses
Sometimes Christians really confuse the crap out of me. Actually, a lot of times - despite the fact that I am continually studying, reading and interacting in an effort to gain a greater understanding. Take this guy, Tim Wirth who runs a website called the Simply Agape Project, which is intended to expose the “Emergent Church Movement and other non-biblical wacky cultural trends in the church.” So, okay, that’s fine. While I don’t agree with his viewpoint, I respect his ability to exercise it in the manner he sees fit.
Now, I’ve stumbled across his website several times, thanks to some handy persistent searches on Technorati, but this article I just don’t get. It’s all about how “multi-sensory worship” is really bad for Christians… for some reason that I can’t really fathom.
First he starts with this thing talking about how God made you and made your senses, so we ought to use them. But then he also says that we can’t necessarily trust our senses, and then drops this weird bombshell: “if I could not taste my food it would not be any less wonderful.” So, that’s a pretty strange thing to say, I think - especially since the photo of Wirth features him sitting behind a drumset. I wonder if he believes that he can enjoy the music that he makes without having to hear it. Who knows?
While I’m still not totally sure what he means by it, Wirth goes on to call multi-sensory worship practices “very pagan and pantheist.” Later he advises:
[…] don’t teach your children experience driven methods like multi sensory worship. Teach them instead the word of God and teach them to memorize scripture as well as practice it.
It seems that by his logic, we don’t need our senses in order to be touched by God. It seems that for a mainstream Christian, he’s accidentally bordering very close to gnosticism by saying that we can’t trust the World or outer experience, and should strive to perceive God directly. I think the fundamental flaw in his Fundamentalist Law here is: how are we to perceive, memorize or practice the Scriptures if we don’t have senses? The underlying paradox is made plain in this sentence:
So close your eyes, be still, read the scriptures, and worship the God who saved you from hell.
How can we read the Scriptures with our eyes closed? I often come to their defense when people say that Christianity and religions are illogical, but I think in this case, it really doesn’t make any sense. But who knows, maybe I’m misinterpreting all this. I’m certainly open to correction and conversation on the subject.
Also strange to me is that in that same piece, Wirth criticizes the practice of Lectio Divina as an “occult practice,” and yet according to Beliefnet’s article on it, Lectio Divina seems almost exactly like his admonition to “be still, read the Scriptures, and worship God.” Check it out:
Choose a text of the Scriptures that you wish to pray. […] Turn to the text and read it slowly, gently. […] Take the word or phrase into yourself. Memorize it and slowly repeat it to yourself, […] Rejoice in the knowledge that God is with you in both words and silence,
So, what is going on here? Am I just missing something?
December 8th, 2005 at 5:55 pm
PS. I’ve invited Wirth to respond with some clarifications on what he meant in this piece. I’m really curious to hear what he says, so if he does stop by, I would appreciate it if people didn’t just jump down his throat. Thanks!
December 8th, 2005 at 6:28 pm
from an nlp standoint the limiting of sensory involvement is not getting the whole effect of whatever is being broadcast. we are transducers. we convert sights, sounds, smells, tastes and touch into a whole reality. not tasting food would drastically change the way we experience and utilise food. same with playing the drums. it sounds to me that whenever someone suggests that we experiece something in only one limited way we are being told not only what to think but how to. good old fashioned mind control.
though the limiting of the ability of one sense to evaluate the environment will sharpen the acuity of the other senses to accomodate. difficult to say how this would work in the example above.
when someone teaches people how to filter thier reality in one way, in this example the scriptures, the effect is that that person then applies the same modus to all of thier reality.
nice little robot factory.
December 8th, 2005 at 9:18 pm
This goes back to the topic of faith, and a Biblical passage that reads, “I walk by faith and not by sight.”
I think Wirth is really only guilty of not referencing his article with something like the above Biblical passage. Without the anchor of a Biblical quote, it comes off as a contradictory rant. In short, it’s bad writing– certainly not a sin in Christian circles but a great heresy in literary ones.
btw: The Biblical quote is from 2nd Corinthians, Chapter 5, verse 7…
December 8th, 2005 at 10:18 pm
Yes, that was my best guess as well. But I was hoping to hear his explanation of the whole thing.
I rather prefer how the author I quoted a couple days ago phrased it though. I actually understood and respected it when he said it:
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/12/06/seeking-the-face-of-god/
I think if Christians are going to venture into this territory, they really need to be very eloquent in their explanations to the rest of us who have not the experience they (claim to) have.
December 8th, 2005 at 10:22 pm
Check out Wirth’s response here. I think I’m starting to see where he’s going with this. I am interested in this in particular:
That seems like a very good topic in and of itself - especially for people who are involved in the occult or similar means to reach God. What do you do when it doesn’t work? When you’re left alone on your own again?
December 8th, 2005 at 10:26 pm
I just posted this to his blog, cause I think there’s a seed of a really great conversation in it:
–
[In reference to Paul getting knocked off his horse:] maybe once was all it took - one strong experience which fueled everything else that he did afterwards.
What about people who haven’t been knocked off their horse by God even once though? Is it wrong for them to go out on the horse and ride around?
December 8th, 2005 at 10:29 pm
This is really interesting also, it’s part of his original response, in reference to Lectio Divina:
Is that really legit Biblically?
December 9th, 2005 at 3:25 am
Is that really legit Biblically?
If it were, then what is prayer? Is it not initiated by humanity?
December 9th, 2005 at 1:37 pm
Hi Tim and all the others: First of all I appreciate the correction James on how we walk by faith not by sight. I truely was thinking that it just never made it on the page so I appreciate your correction.
As for the prayer comment at the end here. Prayer is initiated by man but God initiates how He chooses to respond. Sometime it is getting knocked off your horse. Sometimes it is the still small voice. And sometimes God does not choose to respond to you until later.Sometimes that may be years. God is always on time never to soon or to late in responding to us.
The point I was trying to make with my article was that we are trying methods like centering prayer, Lectio, contemplative as a quick fix and a thrill with God instead of merely praying without ceasing.
If any of you are married how would your spouse feel if you tried to cram your relationship in one half hour just chanting I Love you, I love you, I love you and then expecting a positive responce?
Thats not real or honest.
Now we are teaching occult methods of prayer to children (Lectio etc..).
I can quarentee they may have a encounter but it probably will not be with God. Plus this is being taught to unsaved children who do not even know God. I think that is very dangerous. In my opinion.
Just a little about my background.
I come from a fairly successful career with a secular band.
I then got saved and went into the Christian music world to find things were not very different than the secular. It broke my heart that we didnt want to be different than the world.
In playing in Christian churches because of my background I played in a lot of the TBN churches and nehind some famous folk like Steve Brock-Benny Hinns right hand man. So I saw some crazy goofy stuff not of the Lord.
That has impacted how I respond to things.
Reading the Bible reveals the truth about everything though.
In the Word Faith churches I played in if you were not running around dancing in the pews etc.. God was not there are so they said.
The problem was we were going off the sheer energy of the driving beat so the feeling we got was probably just a good time and not God at all.
And Im not a anti dance or anti contemporary guy I just think we should call something what it is.
(Please quote the Footloose verses here)
If we base our relationship with God only on experience I think we will come up short and disappointed.
God is God. He chooses when and how to respond to us. And trying to figure out a formula or ritual to make Him (or obligate Him)to show up in essence makes us God-which we are not.
I just think Christianity in general has become experience driven.
That sets us up for experiences which may be lying signs and wonders.
Just some thoughts.
Peace
Tim
December 9th, 2005 at 2:23 pm
I know what you’re trying to say here, but isn’t God there when you’re having a good time no matter what? Something about when two or more are gathered in my name? I totally understand your point, but why do we need to decide when and where God is, rather than just accepting that He’s there with us at all times in whatever we do?
December 9th, 2005 at 2:58 pm
this reminds me of something our bishop once said. he said that if we saw angelic hosts every time we performed the mass, we wouldn’t be able to get through the eucharist because we’d be distracted by all the frickin’ angels! well, he used different language, but you know what i mean. it’s not like we’re casting spells trying to summon God, here (well, I guess it sort of is, but it’s a different kind of theurgy). Just because we don’t sense something doesn’t mean it’s not there, but if we do sense something, why discount it because some guy told us to? of course, i’m speaking as a gnostic, and when we experience God we tend to KNOW we’re experiencing God.
his point was that we can’t expect direct experiences every time we do something spiritual, but we shouldn’t disregard spiritual experiences either, because it’s not for us to say how God chooses to manifest. God might very well manifest as something experiential, but might not, but we know that God is there no matter what we’re up to.
hey, how does this all fit in with the charisms, anyhow? don’t they imply sensory experience? and is it necessary to experience the charisms to understand the presence of God?
December 9th, 2005 at 3:21 pm
Tim Wirth,
Thank you for having the guts to accept Mr. Boucher’s invitation.
I, like you, belonged to the secular world, then became ’saved’, as a young adult, burned all my tarot, playboys, maybe even your record albums ect…
“The problem was we were going off the sheer energy of the driving beat so the feeling we got was probably just a good time and not God at all.”
That, is exactly what I have a problem with. Having been to numerous churches with different points of view, I have decided that the whole Christian Church scene is a mess in disparacy. What gives them enjoyment in worshipping God is up to them, and may be a dimension of God that others don’t understand at their point in time.
I used to go to a small Anna-Baptist Church that was insistent that it didn’t matter to God what you believed, but it was HOW you believed that was important. And, buddy, if you didn’t do it right, if you asked any silly questions, or had any type of questionable esoteric ideas..well they would look at you funny and smugly say….”.brother, I really, wonder if you are saved or not”….
So finally I said: Screw it.
Not an easy choice for someone who was conditioned for years to fear fundamental biblical perdition.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:36 pm
Im not saying things like dancing or any of that is wrong itself. And yes God is always present. The problem I had with all this is some false shepherds used the good feelings people were having to get into their pocket books. Its not wrong to own a Jag but when you get one off the congregations donations while people are hungry in the streets thats just wrong.
So see the second part to all this experience is sometimes you will have a false pastor or worship leader whip people purposly into a frenzy to make themselves rich. I know thats not in every church and there are some true shepherds out there, but its been a great deal of my experience.
So you see the feelings people get whipped up into are sometimes used against them to get to their wallets.
I do agree many churches are really messed up. I am under heat in the church I attend because I have been a critc of Rick Warren.
O well.
We really just need to get back into Gods word and share the gospel of jesus Christ with the world. As well as feed the hungry and clothe the naked.
Not buy a pastor a new Harley.
(And yes folks I went to a church that took 3 seperate collections to buy the pastor a brand new Harley-when the guy was already pulling down over 100 grand a year)
I always pray I dont get bitter but sometimes it seeps through
Peace
Tim
December 9th, 2005 at 4:17 pm
Well Tim (W),
You are a better man than I am. I am bitter.I am disgusted.
It seems lately that many ‘Christians’ don’t care about truth, justice, or accountability - but do care intensely about my sex organs, and what I do with them.
Aside, but not omitting all that you said,-
I am surrounded by fundamental baptists here that would have you believe killing infidels is a one way trip to heaven. And God help you if you have the audacity to disagree.
The Crusades are truly back again.
December 9th, 2005 at 9:39 pm
Not to get off topic but who would ever suggest killing anyone could be a one way trip to heaven? The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ and faith in Him. What baptist would suggest killing infidels would lead to heaven?
Just curious.
Peace
Tim
December 10th, 2005 at 4:41 pm
Time W
I was using hyperbole, but not extensive hyperbole.
The acquiescence of mainstream Christianity-especially fundamentalist, to support, without question or reason, a president and his administration that says they are (supporting) ‘the right to life’, but acts altogether in opposite, is a silent support for the dramatic modern theme of ‘Onward Christian Soldiers’.
Their premise:
Since terrorists kill innocent people, they must be stopped at all costs, with whatever methods possible and at all costs.
Especially if they kill Israelis or Americans.
The unspoken, but loud drum beat you hear emanating from the pulpits these days is :
What a wonderful fantasy to uphold,
and many do , especially Christians, who hold on to this a priori logic and from that to the veracity and integrity of our current administration, with the same pious fervor that supported the geo-centric earth theory for centuries.
I beg you to prove I am wrong. Please.
I used to believe in the Goodness of America, and the integrity of our government. I say this with great sadness,but Tim- God (or the Gods) gave us a brain to use or not to use and I’m just warming up….