Unfortunately, JP, revmax and substanceM all decided to make this into something that should, to anyone who reads what they posted, explain why people who call themselves furries feel persecuted. No, there isn’t anything wrong with you feeling a certain way, or speaking your mind about it… but then, do you need to spout the shit circling your brain in the way you did, making yourself look like a prejudiced, hateful, mocking ass, or could you have phrased and posted differently, trying not to sound like all you were doing is sniping at the people the article was talking about?

I’m sorry if anything I wrote came across as hateful. I did try to indicate that I don’t feel qualified to judge this phenom except insofar as I see parallels to certain shamanic prqatcices but I did engage in some mockery too and for that I am must apologize.

I think though that maybe if you read some of the comments again, they weren’t all intended in such a negative light as you maybe read them the first time around.

In any case, you mentioned this:

You say you should have the right to feel the way you feel; that’s fine. But lets say you have a mustache, and I don’t like mustaches. Should I be able to harp on that fact in your hearing, pointing out all the bad things I think about them and basically talking about you without even including you in the conversation?

Absolutely! You should 100% be allowed to do that and JP or anybody else should be prepared for the consequences, as should you.

Anyway I do like your point about the “perverse” side of the furry/etc community is nothing new, and merely a subset of human activity in general. I think that’s a very valuable thing to keep in mind. But at the same time, I don’t see the harm in people being fascinated by these aspects of the furry community. It’s interesting and different from what people are used to and introduces them to new ideas and lifestyles. Whether or not they approve, their perspectives are widened in the process.

Unfortunately, JP, revmax and substanceM all decided to make this into something that should, to anyone who reads what they posted, explain why people who call themselves furries feel persecuted. No, there isn’t anything wrong with you feeling a certain way, or speaking your mind about it… but then, do you need to spout the shit circling your brain in the way you did, making yourself look like a prejudiced, hateful, mocking ass, or could you have phrased and posted differently, trying not to sound like all you were doing is sniping at the people the article was talking about?

*shrugs* It doesn’t really matter, I guess, but think of it like this: You say you should have the right to feel the way you feel; that’s fine. But lets say you have a mustache, and I don’t like mustaches. Should I be able to harp on that fact in your hearing, pointing out all the bad things I think about them and basically talking about you without even including you in the conversation? And not only that, but to a crowd of people, some of whom have no opinion one way or another, thereby influencing them, just because I think a certain way? No. How do you expect someone to feel, if this is the best people who aren’t like them can do for intelligent conversation? (Not that you were able to hold to that for all that long; you kinda lost it half way though the first post, JP.)

On another note, I wanted to post a bit about the feelings that some people might have, because I myself have another aspect to myself. I don’t think of myself as otherkin, but I get that label from a lot of people. To me what I feel is just that; feelings, emotions, and beliefs, not something that was created by some online community; I felt this way a long time before I ever heard the words ‘furry’ or ‘otherkin’.

Basically, I believe in a certain spirit, specifically a dragon spirit. The closest thing I can associate it to that I’ve found is Taoism, and the way I believe and that are very similar. I’ve felt like that spirit is watching over me and guiding me in my life, this feeling has given me a sense of strength and purpose in my life that I didn’t always feel otherwise.

I came apon this by meditation and deep thought, a process that I would engage in for hours, trying to focus and clear my mind. When I first came apon this feeling I was more or less thinking I had let my mind wander, but the same feelings and perceptions returned each time, until I was sure there was a reason for it. I actually researched into it, to try to find out if there were other instances of the same thing happening, and there weren’t many I could find, so I had to kinda go on what I could feel.

The other aspect of what happened with me was more of an internal thing; in my looking inward, I began to see another looking back at me from deep in my mind and yes, I would say my soul as well. I looked deeper, and there I saw a black dragon, that eventually became my persona, and who I think of as my soultwin; the other half of myself. I explored what I had found, and the closer I got to him, the clearer my bond to him became; the two of us were odd, opposite sides of the same coin, together, yet separate.

I was able to get a good feeling from Dracos, and he from me, and we drew closer together, until I would say we are more or less the same now… At first, it felt as if he were someone new, but as time passed he and I became basically the same person, kept apart by the thinest of veils. I think at least some otherkin feel this way about themselves, but I also don’t think there’s any boundaries to what makes you decide to feel that way; some people take longer to reach the decision than others. amd look into it deeper.

As for all the freaky, weird, sick crap that those three were pointing to and laughing about? They all forgot to point out and notice one thing: that stuff is a prevailent in human society as it is in the furry community, and maybe more so… where do you think all these ideas came from? People crap and piss on each other, wear latex suits (remember the balloon thing?), screw helpless animals, torture each other, and submit to the most degrading treatment… and not a one of them are furry. Just ‘normal’ humans.

Saying that there’s something wrong with furries liking odd things without pointing to a few things ‘plain ol’ humans’ like is exactly what you say you’re NOT doing; persecuting them. If you feel something needs to be ragged on, go all out, don’t just pick one kind of person or thing and harp on it.

This sort of thinking, to my mind, represents one of the worst excesses that the New Age has in common with Christian premillenialism: the idea that ’someone else’ will come forward and save the world for us in due time, whether it be the Second Coming of Christ or a new generation of enlightened humans. The few self-proclaimed “Indigos” I’ve known weren’t doing much in the way of going out there and saving the world, however– they were all seeking something spiritually, but didn’t seem to have much in common beyond that. Perhaps I just didn’t bother getting to know them well enough to discover any kind of common ground.

Otherkin is an issue I feel a bit differently about. I can say that, initially, to see the concept explained in the abstract elicited responses from me along the lines of “That’s going too far. Just because you’re different doesn’t mean you aren’t human.” Personal communication with self-identified otherkin has given me a somewhat different view. There are some who find the idea of ‘checklists’ for kin-ness to be a dubious proposition, and feel that one’s identification as kin should be based on personal convictions and symbologies, rather than on fitting certain stock characteristics. In fact, I’ve seen some fairly strong hostility by some otherkin towards “cosmic power kiddies,” young people who are drawn primarily to the power trip of identifying with legendary creatures and the idea that it makes them ‘better than humans.’

I have no analogue to the feeling of “I’m not human” in my own experience, so any attempts of mine to explain the entire phenomenon of otherkin must be taken as an outsider analysis. I’ve certainly experienced my share of alienation and not fitting in for various reasons, but I never went from that point to feeling that I was a wholly different species, in some sense, from those who surrounded me. There was a certain point where, if the concept had been presented to me in the right way, I might have latched onto it as being a conceivable explanation for my differences; and indeed, there does seem to be a definite percentage of self-identified otherkin who jump on the idea for that reason. However, had I done so, I believe I would have discarded it eventually, as I considered and discarded several metaphysical ideas about why I felt alienated. I discarded them because they were not borne out of any deep personal convictions or symbols; I merely ‘fit the criteria’ which someone else had laid out for me. Moreover, I gained nothing from any of those explanations except to feel further alienated– I experienced no spiritual growth, no emotional resolution, no sense of peace with myself from trying to believe in them.

The particular otherkin I’ve met who impressed me as genuine and authentic, however, had very dissimilar experiences. Many of them described fascination and emotional identification with particular creatures from childhood, and, perhaps more importantly, a sense of resolution and contentment when they stopped trying to “fight” the image, and allowed themselves to identify with it on varying levels. Actually, I’ve known some older people who felt all their lives that they were ’something else,’ without having any common vocabulary to describe it. I can see how this works, in a way, because I’ve found the most spiritual growth and emotional resolution in focusing on my ‘original’ symbols, the images and concepts which intrigued me from childhood.

Of course there are plenty of otherkin who are probably just experimenting with what they see as a ‘cool’ idea; in my time spent in and around communities focused on various types of non-standard identity, I’ve concluded that you will always get a lot of those. It’s unavoidable. Some otherkin complain of outsiders who presume that “I’m different” equates to “I’m special and better than you”; the problem is that there *are* going to be quite a few who think it makes them special and better.

However, I’m always intensely curious about how and why people come to their beliefs. I’m intrigued by the issue of what draws the honest ones specifically to individual beings, to dragons or elves or wolves, as opposed to a mere general feeling of ‘differentness.’ There’s a kind of ‘mock the weirdos’ thinking which seems to be fostered in a lot of online communities, such that I occasionally find myself leaning in that direction, and have to stop and remind myself that my own beliefs and self-identity would be considered bizarre or overly extreme by many.

I’ve never heard of Indigo Children Syndrome, but it sounds to me like good old-fashioned Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

LOL.

instead they dress up like sonic the hedgehog and do congo lines through convention centers

To quote Mickey Rourke from Barfly, maybe what they really need is “a little hint of death”!

Hell, I’m 35, I was an angry punk rocker with a shaved head and combat boots, a few years later i caught the tail end of rave and did massive amounts of drugs, maybe this furries crap is the next big thing for alienated teens, it definitely seems silly as shit to me but who am i to judge?

One of the most popular exhibits over the years has been a replica of a Leopard Men, or Anioto. These were members of a secret Congolese society who dressed in leopard skins and murdered people in the night, ripping them open with iron claws or knives and making it look like the work of a leopard. “It must be understood that such ritual institutions dedicated exclusively to murder have only seen the light of day rarely in Africa,” explains a sign, added recently to mitigate the longstanding stereotype of the savage African.

http://www.dispatchesfromthevanishingworld.com/dispatch3/dispatch3c.html

Reminds me of yer previosu post about the popular acceptance of homosexuality in imperial societies - plushies, furries etc could by a symptoim of the same thing.

HAW, maybe I should rename myself Victor David Manson and write a pompous essay about Furries as an indicator of the decline of the west or something…

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1727

something awful is a fantastic comedy site, btw.

http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/spokkerjones~10-12-03_46.gif

he prolly also wasn’t sexually aroused by the idea of BEING KILLED AND EATEN:

http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/spokkerjones~10-12-03_46.gif

if you can stomach it, this selection of posts from furry bbs’s is an absolute riot, like some kind of sideshow . . . .

Actually I was just thinking that this whole furry thing goes way back - another example:

. Soetonius’ 12 Ceasars informs us that Nero enjoyed dressing up in the skins of wild animals and attacking the private parts of men and women who stood bound to stakes. Then he would “allow” himself to be ravished by his freedman doryphorus (sp? from memory, sorry) and would imitate the screams and moans of a woman being deflowered on her wedding night.

Flexible concept of self species and gender at least for the purpose of fantasy. A bit more hardcore, but how different really?

i guess what i mean by ‘terrifying’ is a sort of deep, existential terror that the universe is so cruel that it makes some people get sexually aroused by a gay half-seal half-kitten being eaten by an anthropomorphic dolphin.

OTOH…

The Dionysian mystery has drawn a lot of scholarly interest because it
posited that man possessed two natures, evil and divine/good. The
explanation given was that Dionysus-Zagreus as a child had been murdered by
the Titans and eaten. They in turn were vaporized by Zeus’ thunderbolts and
from their ashes mankind was created. Thus through the eating of a god, man
possessed a god’s divine, holy and good nature, which constantly warred with
his flesh which was evil and Titanic. Dionysus-Zagreus was the son of the
supreme god, Zeus, and his mother is alternately Semele or Persephone
(mortal women), the latter being impregnated by Zeus in the form of a snake
while hiding from him in a cave. Hera (Zeus’ wife) hated Dionysus-Zagreus
and sought the child’s life. Zeus intended to make him ruler of all the
earth, and in some art forms the child is shown on a throne, but the Titans
on Hera’s urging killed him. In one episode Zagreus is hidden in the form a
kid (goat) and in another as a bull. Both animals were sacrifcied in his
honor, he being, according to some scholars, the sacrifical animal.
Dionysus’ followers, the Meneads, tore apart living animals and ate their
flesh raw, enacting his death at the hands of the Titans according to some.
Dionysus was also the god of wine and is shown holding vines with grape
clusters. He was believed to be “in the wine,” and when it was drunk, a
mania overtook his followers, “his spirit being in them,” inducing ecstasy.

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2142

re indigo kids, i think it’s sad that these kids are being exploited by greedmongers and delusional parents. hell, i read ‘the hobbit’ at the ripe old age of four. does that mean i was an ‘indigo kid’? no, it means my dad is a linguist and had me reading at one and a half.

Disney > dental dams

I dress up in a top hat and skeleton suit and get fall-down drunk a couple of times a year when i start taking life to seriously or even just for the hell of it, so on second thought, please give catwoman my phone number.

Oh, yeah, indigo kids, reminds me of the Little Emperors.

SPANKING!!!!!!!!!!

WTF about the balloon animals? What kind of deranged birthday parties did these kids attend? Wait, wait, don’t get hurtful… Maybe better to say, I find it really odd and unique that you enjoy rubbing your dick against a balloon.

it’s a free country, so people are free to fuck stuffed animals, but i’m free to consider that completely repulsive, right? and i must say i’ve come across plenty of furries with huge persecution complexes, like finding this stuff utterly repulsive is somehow stepping on their rights to dress up like goofy and dry hump a pantomime giraffe. i’m not persecuting you if i personally find getting a stiffie over a modified image of a half-human, half-horse eating (literally) a fox with wings an affront to all that is good in the world.

and for those of you who think i’m overreacting or exagerrating, check out the rather popular furry subset called “vore”:

http://www.voraphile.com/whatis/

or, perhaps the balloon-fuck subset, in which participants are sexually aroused by balloon animals:

http://www.balloonpup.com/

i guess i’m prejudiced against furries, but i find this shit utterly terrifying.

actually, it makes me think of cultural taboos, what’s considered acceptable to a particular culture. like, where does one draw the line at cultural tolerance? it’s part of certain cultures to eat dogs and cats, which i find utterly horrifying. does hating this practice make me somehow insensitve to this particular culture’s social norms? what if said culture ate humans? do we condemn the british empire for attempting to end the practice of sati, where brides would immolate themselves on their husbands’ funeral pyres? do we write off female circumcision as a cultural tradition that we should respect even though it’s a monstrous practice?

On the furry toy fuckers - I seem to remember reading a while back when Star Wars Phantom Menace came out that a large stuffed Jarjar doll was a popular focus of some children’s enthusiasm….

But onto my main point, that is the first I have heard of the Indigo Kids (and it reminds me somewhat of the 3 yr old “saviour” kid in Valis)
I find it interesting that via new age beleif channels, there are the seeds being planted that

a - there are “superior humans” coming up in the next generation
b - the more recent twist is that they are more “warrior-like”
c - the traits assigned to them are selfishness and a sense of entitlement and superiority (and don’t get me wrong, I kind of get the positive side of this as well in the context of kids not wanting to be spoonfed the beliefs and norms of the previous generation, and not being affected by self worth issues, but the more insidious side is laying beside the innocuous or even positive side)
d - they will be in positions of power to change the world
(mutliple messiah like leaders…)

IF you can convince enough people of this, and they are given this sort of rope to play with, hey - who will want to admit they are not a superior super kid and just a plain old human being???

Seriously, though, there is great power in invoking a different personality. Zac at Alchemical Braindamage currently has a post that sort of thing. Props and costumes help you merge with that alter-ego. That’s really all there is to magic. In Zac’s words:

Now, ancient practitioners understood this concept, but to conceptualize entirely different orders of experience and understanding they felt the need to attribute them to autonomous complexes of energy and intentionality, ie; spirits, demons, gods whathaveyou. You needn’t bother with that unless you want to. It will probably help, but there can be side effects. More on that another time.

I also know a girl who wears cat ears all the time.