the timboucher experience

Matt

I can relate to your outlook on this. I’ve always wanted to get to the heart of the matter rather than skirt around with a Scripture-or-Nothing approach.

Tammy

Well, lemme preface my thoughts with a few things, I am Catholic, so I tend not to have the ‘typical’ christian view on some of these matters. Second–I think I’m right

1) Jesus, of course. No Jesus, no bible. Or at least, the bible would be shorter, considering there’d be no new testament and all that profacy in the old testament leading up to that would vanish too. Basically he bible would encompass the fall of man, all the crappy things he’s done since then, and a big ole “sucks to be you guys” disclaimer from the almighty written on a wall in stone somewhere (sounds like a sci-fi story). But seriously… It is possible to come to know Jesus and follow him without ever having picked up a bible. You can learn it from the lives of others, by what they say to you, by what God speaks to you in your heart. But a bible helps. In one way, it’s a road map. Ya might not need a roadmap to get some place you’ve never been before–maybe you talk to a few folks in some gas stations, or know it’s kind of over near xyz, which you have been to before, then you kinda drive around the area for a while till you find it. Roadmaps arn’t always entirely necessary–but they help.

2) In that same line of thought… If you want to learn about someone, and what they taught, what they have done for the world, you go to an autobiography first. In leu of not having that available, the words of those who knew them are tremendous help. I’m involved in a lot of research (another area) and one thing that really burns my rubber is when people base their own learning, or worse still, papers, on other people’s commentary and interpretation without ever having looked at the source document. It seems awful round-about to me. sure, commentary can help, but how the heck can you distill what’s being said, or interpret it, if you have no knowledge of the actual text? it makes me want to beat undergraduates to death with their own papers sometimes

Does the new testament accurately reflect jesus’ teachings? Well, the four gospel writers seem to cooberate each other. Some contain details (or entire stories) the others have left out, and tend to only vary in detail and wording. Of course, those guys could be seen to have had a motivation to “get their stories straight,” and in the end, it does take a bit of a leap of faith. Because I am so involved in research, all I can advocate to anyone, regarding ANYTHING, is don’t go into your subject matter of interest with a chip on your shoulder, or the attitude that you will prove or disprove ANYTHING by your findings. Human nature causes us to slip on the ole rose-colored glasses and only see what we want to, or interpret contrary evidence incorrectly or dismiss it entirely. That’s not really great for scientific inquiry, historical inquiry, spiritual inquiry, etc. it helps to spend a very long time just gathering data, before attempting to synthesize it, which I don’t think most people do in regards to religion (any religion). They see something that’s flashy and cool, and will do anything to support it, or they see something that’s weird and unattractive, and look for any way to discredit it. Human nature of course, but being aware of that tendancy is the first step to overcoming it

As for the idea of is something “biblical,” that has a different meaning for catholics than most other Christians. When we attempt to coddify our beliefs, we look at the bible, sacred tradition (the writings of the early church fathers, the writings and lives of the saints, etc), and spiritual/theological thought. Of course, a lot of theology is speculative. St. Augustine and others put pen (or quill, or bone, or…) to paper and wrote pages and volumes of “maybe it’s like this…” which sometimes people figure is “obviously” hard and fast Catholic belief. A good resource for feeling your way around what Catholics believe, at least, is the Catichism of the Catholic Church (now in a handy pocket-sized paperback ). It’s really… really… REALLY annotated. The footnotes include for each paragraph what parts of the bible, writings of church fathers, writings of popes/scholars that stuff is based on. I’m not saying you’ll turn automatically into a True Believer (Stan Lee, Marvel style!), and you’ll be baptized at Easter, but at least you’ll see where we’re coming from, and it would be so much like we pulled all those ideas out of thin air. I personally can’t speak for the rest of Christianity. We believe that we were here first, that Peter was the first pope, and they have broken away from US, so we can’t vouch for their voracity (no offence to anyone, of course–I’m just explaining what we believe. Free Will entitles us all to believe what we choose, however erronious we are, or however erronious we believe others to be).

3) There are some groups that believe hey, Jesus did that ultimate sacrifice thing, so I’m in the clear, no matter what! After all, what Jesus did (dying for our sins) is soo much more monumental than our good deeds, our successes and our failures. Therefore it’s not quite so important to memorize every verse of the bible, right?

Well, IF Jesus died for us, and made that monumental sacrifice to redeem our sorry asses, then the LEAST we can do is try to get to know him and live a life where we are not adding more sin and hurt to the world, or him. Reading the bible and developing a lifestyle and personal philosophy that aids with that goal could be viewed as an attempt to at least show appreciation or gratitude for that one act.

He spent three years on the earth (assuming all the gospel writers wern’t involved in some kind of conspiracy to tell us to love one another and stuff) giving us all this “material,” one’d think he did it for a reason. Otherwise he’d have lived anonymously and gone out in style, and very little would be required of us beyond that.

Ultimately, that act of salvation is the most important. However, it tends to mean very little to us if we don’t try to make some sort of connection to it through living by his example. Otherwise we’re the guy who goes out and does a zillion bad things all day, but rests easy when he puts his head on the pillow because “hey, I’m saved!” and he belives that, with no real concept of what was sacrificed, or what was redeemed. A “hands-on” approach usually works best

4) Have I mentioned us Catholics are right? Honestly, though. In many circumstances, generalities and be agreed upon within groups of christians and between groups of christians. It’s the fine details that leave so much room for debate. I think this brings us back to that nasty free will thingy. We have the privelage and freedrom to be wrong and mistaken, or to let our egos get in the way of our own understanding and interpretation. Part of living and learning and growing is coming closer to the truth over time. That nasty human condition thing is what gets in the way of some “voice crying out in the wilderness” from being the voice that everyone hears and understands simultaniously, and says YES, I get behind THIS PERSON, their message, and the way they are presenting that message. We’re all on our own journey, in our own time like that.

Wouldn’t it be cool if we knew beyond the shadow of a doubt who to follow, how to interpret them and how to live? At the same time, though, that’d kind of take away from the journey of life, and figuring out who we are would be a hell of a lot less fun. We’d also be automatons (not the plastic guys from Dr Who–well, ok, maybe those guys too). We’d just be doing what the central computer, or mother ship, or head honcho on the mountain told us. No learning, no room for mistakes, no free will. The thing about free will is… it gives us the privelage and gift of being able to make mistakes. It also makes our right choices that much more important, because we had the opportunity to go either way, and went the right way. There’s no gift or meaning in being a drone that simply does the right thing because it’s in our programming.

5) How do you know the spirit of the law, if you don’t know the letter of the law? Sometimes the “spirit” of the law is up for interpretation. It may mean different things to different people. Actually knowing the bible gives you more information to make more informed decisions. It’s always better to have more information than less.

It’s very easy to be in the letter of the law and be outside the spirit of the law. I think we can all agree on that. It’s very very difficult to be in the ’spirit’ of the law and not be in the letter as well. Especially when you truely look at the spirit the “law” was written in. The Ten Commandments, for example. Sure they’re “commandments,” and we’re all stubborn and don’t like being told what to do. But really, ultimately, those “rules” are mostly there to save us from ourselves. Some of the stuff is pretty obvious. Killing your neighbor and taking his stuff really isn’t doing your community any sort of favors. Lusting after his stuff or his wife does hurt you, however. Especially if you dwell and dwell and dwell. It can make you bitter, and change how you behave towards others, it can draw you into yourself and into your own fantacies instead of interracting with the real world and making your dreams come true (want a big screen tv? come up with a plan to get one legitimately! lusting after the jonses’ tv just turns you into an “i can’t” kind of person by cripling your own sense of your own ability to achieve). Other stuff’s less obvious. Like all that not eating the pig stuff, drinking the blood of animals, etc. found in the old testament. some of it had social impact, some of it had real health concerns in the ancient world. “somebody” was thinking about that stuff. And if you believe in God, it’s not too unreasonable to believe that He knows stuff we don’t, and he knows what’s best for us. We know what we THINK is best, but ultimately, laying off the animal blood might just be the thing :). Honestly–my sister think she has her life so completely under control, and she can manage the 47 things she’s doing totally destroy her life and future (19 yr olds know everything, you know). *I* am a lot older. *I* can see from what i’ve seen my friends and other people my age have done how that kind of behavior usually plays out. But y’know, she’s much wiser than the ten commandments. she’s doing that “love your neighbor as yourself” thing, (spirit of the law thingy again) so that bit about adultury and that other bit in the new testament about fornication is overrided.

Too bad she’s too busy spending time with this guy to go to class, so she already failed history. Flunking out of college is a hop skip and jump away. And if she gets pregnant, or involved with a “domestic situation,” she’s really not going to want to reapply and go back, or look for another school. Her time will pass her by, and she’ll end up at a dead-end job because she has bills to pay or a mouth to feed and this loser guy who couldn’t wait for her has gone on to the next girl. Her best friend is having her second child, different father from the first of course… working a $7 an hr job at a hospital because she didn’t go to college, and the girl is still out there sewing the wild oats, and basically doing it to herself. I think in the end, it helps to look a little deeper into what the stupid “oppressive” rules really are trying to tell us and save us from. think of it as a spritual cost-benefit analysis.

So, from that perspective, I don’t think you can help but get “mixed up” with the bible, really. Catholics don’t look to it as our sole arbater in spiritual matters, especially when we try to wind our way through circumstances and such. I personally don’t think it’s wise. Not everything Jesus said and did was in the bible. There were many church fathers and early christian writers that knew jesus, or knew the apostles and wrote things that can fill in some details and blanks, which we don’t get when we look only at the bible. God did give us that stuff to, he probably didn’t mean us to squander the extra information. We also have the lives and experiences and writings of the saints, theologans, church scholars, popes, etc to help us understand the bible.

In a way, it’s kind of like the facial reconstructions the forensic artists do. If you have a clean skeleton, no clothes, nothing to tell you who this person was, what they looked like, etc. Then all you have is that skeleton. but there are clues there, that can tell you more than just male, female, hight, etc. You have outside information that you bring in (anthropological statistical data on ethnic groups, etc) that help show how the muscles and skin fit around that skeleton, and what that person looked like. It’s not that live person, it may not be the right eye color or perfect skin tone, but you get an accurate view of what they looked like. what I’m trying to say in my very tired and past my bed time kind of way is that we try to use a little of all the tools we believe we given to us, hopefully not to make it up as we go along, but to serve the truth.

I personally don’t hold much stock in the folks who insist on every. little. last. thing. being biblical. Toilet paper aint biblical, but I aint giving it up. i’ve also known some folks that seemed to get so caught up in the idea of the words on the page, that they lost sight that those words talk about the very real person of Jesus, and that God is not a myth, fantacy or roll-playing character, but is living and interracting with us, if we’re just patient enough to shut up and listen sometimes. there are some folks out there (not all “Bible Christians” mind you) that seem to worship the bible, and not God. That’s that nasty free will thing creeping up again. People have the room and the freedom to get it wrong, even when they’re so close to getting it right. It’s like standing in front of an apartment building that’s locked, and you don’t know what button to press to get the person you want, so you’re stuck there. Just glass between you and them, but you don’t know how to fix it.

As always, I advocate research, research, research. Source materials first, and gathering as much information as possible before getting involved with conclusions. Otherwise, yes, when you line up all the apparently contradictory things christians say/do or the bible contains, yes, you will get conclusions that obviously lean in a certain direction. However, context is everything. anybody can pull quotes out of context. Look at the quotes that they put on movie posters. “Amazing…work of genious…oscar contender.” when really the reviewer said “The lack of clear direction was amazing. The cinematographer treats it like a work of genious or an oscar contender, which makes the weak script even more laughable.”

We’ll never know the whole story until we die, and by then it’s too late to yell out to everybody about what the truth is, so we do the best we can, and we do the best we can when we have the most information we can. I never really expect anyone to jump up and convert (though hey, it’d be nice) and I don’t hold it against anyone. Mostly I just hope people gain a fuller understanding, beyond the rhetoric and beyond the pros and cons of other people’s opinions and distillations of the facts.

(sorry that’s so long and so misspelt, it’s wicked-late).

JK

In the wrong hands the bible is but another book, magazine, reciept, artifact. This, I think is where the bible finds itself today as well as, for instance, the Koran.

There are some things out there which do not carry the qualities of being nothing more than a stationary artifcact. Those things are the spirit — they lack all the features of the other things we sense that seem to be going somewhere — moving, ascending, descending, transcending, feeling, emoting etc.

What did the spirit of Christ rely on before the advent of the printing press? What did he rely on before the emergence of the Holy Roman Empire when the church held the scriptures close to the vest? And again, what did Christ rely on before he was ever born?

-

Right.
I meant to imply I have my own doubt there is an after-life or continued personal existence. It is possible there is something, but with no empirical or logical way to prove it or show it I doubt it. Can a person be saved, can humanity be saved in this life? I agree this is a much better way of looking at it.

eyensane

The third testament won’t be writen down,it will transmetited.I mean come on just degredation of turn the other cheek would be enough to make christ question his passion. I know as I turn my cheek if I get hit again I’m not holding back,especially if the person just wiped their arse with that hand. The writen word has created a desert(noah if your sheeping WAKE UP)…… Christ sacrifice?yeah who came up with that…he just cleaned his karmic plate and asked for a second helping. He’s a master not massocist. So quit acting like the story is finished get up on your asses and move

Kylark

the concept of universalism (that everybody eventually goes to hell no matter what)

Uh, Tim, is this a typo?

Tammy

Slomo, it’s not people’s authority I distrust, it’s their sanity

Honestly… You can look at a religion or spirituality and say those ideas are weird and wrong, therefore that’s wrong. Or those ideas are kind of ok, but look at the people who follow that!!?? They’re the biggest damned bunch of hypocrites I’ve ever seen!

To a degree, I get a little depressed with humanity when I actually start looking at people. There’re the do as I say, not as I do folks, there’re the folks who have at their disposal something that’ll make their lives better (a religion, a 12 step group, whatever) who will NEVER understand it fully, utilize it fully or actually change themselves in any sort of way. They used to be a bully, so they’ll use religion to be a bully, or they will use it to justify how they treat others. That’s the human condition again, and it extends to all faiths, including athiests and agnostics.

My brother’s a tiny bit bitter about religion, and a declared theist, but he’s never unpleasent to be around. If Im talking about religion, he doesn’t feel the need to beat me to death with The Origin of Species or anything. In return, I have not once slapped him with a bible when he talks about how stupid he thinks religion is Mostly, I don’t like being harassed. I have equal amounts of unfunness when my aunt feels the need to tell me that I’m going to burn in hell for not being a “bible christian,” (y’know, cuz catholics don’t believe in the bible or something) or I get harassed by some supposed “intellectual” at the university who can’t understand why such a smart person like me would “buy in” to that superstitious nonsense, for hours and hours on end. For the most part, people just dont want to be badgered. But there’re a lot of people who are VERY good at getting up on soapboxes and trying to make other people feel bad or stupid for whatever “erronious” belief they posess.

And those people make me want to strangle them sometimes. Authority is a bit subjective sometimes. it’s like the internet. You might find gems of research gold on the internet just because Bob of Bob’s Western Website happens to not be academically minded enough to write research papers, but knows a hell of a lot about Doc Holliday. So and so of such and such university may also have the crappiest site on frontier towns with nothing resembling facts as well. Hell, I’ve even read scholarly papers where I finish and I’m just flat out pissed that not only has this person put such rubbish to paper, but that someone published it. it’s very difficult to get students to understand the idea of “authority” and “believability” on the internet, and I suspect it’s that way with many people with a lot of things. So and so is an “expert” on CNN talking about XYZ, but what really are their qualifications? What chips do they have on their shoulder?

It’s definately that way with “religious authorities.” There’re some of them that are like infomercials–they talk a good line, and when they say it, it sounds like it must be true, even hough they’re trying to sell you a piece of crap. And there’re people that do know what they’re talking about, and just arn’t that great at communicating. There’re people who are very knowledgable and just don’t LIVE it, and I think that comes through inthe message. There’s nothing like having a pastor who knows everything in the world about christian history yell and scream from the pulpit like Michael Savage. Sure, he might have his facts and figures right, but if you haven’t internalized it, and you arn’t living it, then what good IS it? People learn far more by example than by wrote. It’s easy to shut those people off quickly, or at least try and analyse folks who’re a little boarder-line. It helps you distill what they[’re saying a little easier.

There’re no easy answers in the world. Unfortunately, if we let our own bad experiences and hard feelings with groups or people get in the way, we’ll never get to the answers either. It helps to talk directly to the guy upstairs, ifyou believe he’s there or not. “ok, I don’t know. Is this person full of beans, God? Hey god… you there?” If he aint there, you’ve really lost nothing by doing the occational asking. I think the best thing anyone can be is at least open to possibilities. Some folks get tied up in a religious system and get all “hardcore” about it. I believe you should liveout your beliefs as deeply and thoroughly as you can. Some get so tied up in the idea that there’s nothing out there, that possibility comes tapping on the left shoulder, but they’re so busy looking out the passenger side window of life. We have to make room for growth by just taking step back, mostly away from our human need to be obsessively controlling of ourselves and our environment. Spiritual journeys are a bit like art… the cool stuff happens when you step back and just let it be. Otherwise you spend the rest of your life doing studies of people’s feet until you “get it right.”

Zen Novice

I feel sorry for some atheists. I think they live too much in a world of rigid reason devoid of any real feeling for the mysterious. As people point out even science has its limitations and requires a bit of faith. Life isn’t pure logic or reason, it is pure creative energy- vast beyond comprehension.
I feel sorry for some believers. I think they get too caught up in their own thought-constructs, their social reality and are unconnected to the sacred and multi-dimensional quality of love. Since they are more concerened about claiming to know the truth, they are unable to experience the mystery of being.
This site is an example of why I left traditional Christianity behind http://www.wayofthemaster.com/wotm_flash.html

Manning

You’ve touched on a number of areas and I only have time to run with one of them…

Tim: But seriously… It is possible to come to know Jesus and follow him without ever having picked up a bible. You can learn it from the lives of others, by what they say to you, by what God speaks to you in your heart. But a bible helps. In one way, it’s a road map. Ya might not need a roadmap to get some place you’ve never been before–maybe you talk to a few folks in some gas stations, or know it’s kind of over near xyz, which you have been to before, then you kinda drive around the area for a while till you find it. Roadmaps arn’t always entirely necessary–but they help.

I was not on any form of spiritual path previous to my “experience”. I’d never read the bible (or any other Holy Book) and I haven’t been in a church since my early youth. In spite of this I had a very powerful spiritual experience and I didn’t have any kind of roadmap to help me negotiate it. As a result, I’m not overly fond of roadmaps or guidebooks. I suspect they can distort or shape one’s personal experience by implying when or how things should be done. I think you’re better off to allow the experience and guides to provide those answers from within the experience.

Where I do see roadmaps and guidebooks as being helpful is in the aftermath, when one is interpreting and digesting all that which unfolded in the experience. Mind you, there are different forms of experience and the slow but steady path has a great deal of merit. If a particular book or path resonates for you, that’s probably the one you should take — assuming you have the choice, that is.

Gnomely

Lord of the Rings is my bible. I read the book and I enter that world, the spirit that Tolkien created helps me to deal with ordinary reality and life in general. That is what myth is supposed to do.
The characters are archetypes and energies I seek inspiration from. The hobbits- value simplicity and simple joys, the elves mystical reverence for nature, and Gandalf to stand up and fight for deceny and kindness. After a while the book isn’t so important but what permeates in me after reading it, it gets inside of me. Tolkien was a Catholic and in a way the LOTR is a manifestation of his catholic faith, reading LOTR I get an experience so direct I am experiencing a reality of faith. So in regards to the post at hand I say most people need a book before they can jump into the spirit. As LOTR works for me, the bible works for others.

Anna

“What’s more important, Jesus or the Bible? ”

Neither, without the Old Testament one can’t properly understand Jesus and his teachings, how much they changed the teaching given to Moses by God. Many of Jesus’ teachings change Jewish law some add or change some aspect of the law. There are many people that have the misconception that the New Testament makes the Old Testament null and void, that isn’t so.

“Does the Bible accurately reflect Jesus’ teachings?”

Yes, many of the accounts where written first hand, others where written from the teachings of the people that witness it first hand. That increases the accuracy of the letters or books as the case my be. So many people have swallowed the lies told in [u]The DaVinci Code[/u] that it makes it harder to make the case of the bibles accuracy.

“Another way of asking this question might be: what was more important, the ethical system propounded by Jesus or the symbolic act which he performed?”

This response will be akin to the answer I gave to the first question. Jesus’ death does not gave everyone a free pass to heave so without following his teachings believing in the sacrifice is kind of pointless. Post-modernism goes against biblical teachings with its believe of relative morality.

I fear I sound pompous so I will stop now.

Tammy

LOL there was a lot of misinformation circulating BEFORE the DaVinci Code. Folks want to point to some things and say “that’s it! that’s why civilization is ending!” But really… people are going to question the athority and even relevence of Christ and the believability of the bible forever, probably. There’re still Jews, arn’t there? If there were magic words to “make” people “understand,” then certainly every jew who came in contact with Christ would have converted right then and there. They were there, they saw for themselves what he was all about. Some folks interpreted his actions as meaning he was the one forshadowed in the holy texts. Others interpreted him differently.

…as for the person who doesn’t like the URL… all blogging is a form of mental masturbation, so, in the end, the site name is irrelivent.

y’know, you folks have been remarkably cool-headed. It’s nice to disagree with people and not have it get personal. Thumbs up, and it’s been great talking to you all.

Ktulu

Gnomely:

reading LOTR I get an experience so direct I am experiencing a reality of faith. So in regards to the post at hand I say most people need a book before they can jump into the spirit. As LOTR works for me, the bible works for others.

Manning:

LOTR is also a monomyth and when you strip the overlays of culture from many spiritual experiences, that’s what you’re left with — the pattern of the hero’s journey. It’s reflected in the life of Christ, the life of Buddha, the life of Mohammed, etc. I suppose it’s an archetype within ourselves and the purpose of any Holy Book is not so much to lead you through it as it is to stir that which is already within you

The Hero Myth is essential to personal growth and the evolution of one’s conscious awareness. It is an archetype within us, it’s an imprint of where we are and where we need to go. Plato’s Cave Allegory works much in the same way, and pretty much mirrors the Hero Myth. In much the same way, Leary’s 8 circuits of consciousness fits directly into the Hero Myth and Plato’s Model. In all three, there is a distinct separation of ordinary and the extraordinary. For Plato, it was the world of shadows vs. the world of the forms. For Campbell and his Hero Myth model, it was the realm of the mundane vs. realm of the divine. And for Leary, it was the terrestrial consciousness of the ego vs. the extraterrestrial consciousness of the SELF.

For me, I see the myths and symbols and archetypes as maps inherent within the collective unconscious. Whether that collective be genetic-based (akashic records) or consciousness-based (like tuning into the same TV channel), I don’t know, and I don’t think it matters. The point is that they are maps of what is needed for human (or consciousness) evolution. The hero myth is inspiration to seek and find out truth and “enlightenment” (or some other tool from the “divine”), and bring it back to humanity to help humanity evolve beyond a conflict.

Error 404

Ah, the old “Christianity is True because The Bible says so.”

The written word has power. Printed even more so. My grandmother never beleived the rest of us when we told her that the National Inquirer wasn’t neccessarily right. She was convinced that it is illegal to lie in a newspaper. That’s changing now that printers are easily available so anybody can make authoritative looking documents.

As for me, I have been through a number of waves of belief and skepticism. Through it all, I’ve remained Catholic because you can’t be a proper heretic without an orthodox dogma to violate. A while back, I noticed that the existance of the Divine Sense of Humor is the most observable thing there is, at least from where I stand, and a matter of “well, DUH”, not faith. And just this morning, I realized that my faith is based on my sense of surrealism (The creator of the universe a helpless infant in that universe? God is an intinerant rabbi in the boonies of the Roman Empire? Yep, that’s the kind of thing that rings true in my soul.) which makes Dali’s Persistance of Vision (that melted clocks painting) a literal ikon to me.

Anna

I didn’t mean to say the book was causing all the questions, it is just a large scoop of miss-information. That has annoy me lately because I have seen people talking about it as true. That said I should have probably left that out of my comment sense it muddled the meaning of it.