What if they dont know to which spiritual tradition (if any) they belong so there just searching to obtain some kind of understanding or correlation. I agree whith what you say but what if youre journey as only just started?

I think doing what you’re doing makes perfect sense: finding other people interested in it to explore and talk about these ideas and share your experiences.

What if they dont know to which spiritual tradition (if any) they belong so there just searching to obtain some kind of understanding or correlation. I agree whith what you say but what if youre journey as only just started?

You have to start out on your own, what else can anyone do? Read, think, explore, experiement. If nothing else thats safe and you may learn something too.

n your estimate, Rev., how long did “your friend’s” amphetamine phase last, how much did he manage a day, and how many hours of sleep did he get daily? How much work did you put into your website, art, etc., during that time?

It lasted about 2 years, 6 or so hours of sleep a night, 12-16 hours of art, writing web work a day.

WHat I discovered was that you reach a point of diminishing returns, I was absorbing an incredible amount of information and processing an enormous amount of written and visual work back out, but I was taking it all in and spitting it all back out agai so quickly none of it really got digested if that makes any sense - i didn’t get any nutrition from it.

Towards the end i began to associte creativity with that sort of insomniacal mania which was a shame because one did not necessarily lead to the other - out of creative juice but the whole machine kept running at breakneck speed even though i had nothing left to say. So the process began to feel increasingly bleak, mechanical cold and souless until finally i just quit.

You can’t force inspiration, its like trying to force a nosebleed, better to let things run at their own pace. Thats how I see it now with 8 years hindight.

I had a menage a trois once with two lesbians, does that count?

Okay, here’s a question, don’t feel obligated to answer, that’s more practical: in your estimate, Rev., how long did “your friend’s” amphetamine phase last, how much did he manage a day, and how many hours of sleep did he get daily? How much work did you put into your website, art, etc., during that time?

Yeah, I think the “solitary practitioner” thing is a cop-out too, for people who don’t want to put their money where their mouth is. Shit or get off the pot!

I’ll agree, although I’m guilty–I’m looking for friends, I’m not going to anything that resembles Wicca, that’s the harder part.

i’m really tired of people getting all stodgy about gnosticism & what it “means” and how it’s built. it’s like writing an academic dissertation on punk rock.

yeah talk about missing the point! The sufi parables are also full of this theme, someone comes with knowledge to rescue a bunch of people fropm a prison, and instead of leaving the prisoin with him they get sidetracked in an argument about whether or not it would be an auspicious time to escape, what would be the proper techniques to climb a wall, who invented wall-climbing, by what title they should call the savior, etc etc etc. The savior is eventually exhausted by all this endless jawing and debating and departs in disgust, leaving the prisoners (weeks later) exactly where he found them!

what i was getting at is that gnosticism, *real* honest to god gnosticism is about DOING it, in the best way that works for you, and getting RESULTS. if you don’t get results from finding gnosis, you’re doing something wrong.

It wasn”t until i did this interview for tim that I realized how heavily I had been influenced by secular authors I read before I “discovered” gnosticism

Hakim Bey
Peter Carroll
Georges Batille

…all authors I was reading right beofre I moved to San Fran, all discuss gnosticism as a phenomenon of active practice. Carroll in particular. Carroll’s view of gnosticism influenced me much more more than I had realized

i also dig what you’re saying about the whole ’solitary practitioner’ thing. it can be such a frickin’ modern cop-out (not always, but it can be). half the fun (and yeah, this stuff should be fun) about a spiritual tradition is doing it with other people.

Yeah, I think the “solitary practitioner” thing is a cop-out too, for people who don’t want to put their money where their mouth is. Shit or get off the pot!

I am wondering if the ancestral spirits, as they’re interpreted here, might come about in various façades in other esoteric traditions. Or if they are structured in the spiritual “egregore” of a people over time as a metaphysical device unique unto them

The ATRs are similar to a lot of shamanic paradigms in that the idea exists that humans have multiple souls, one part that travel onwards to a final rest or to be reincarnted after death and another part that remains behind to guide and protect descendants.

And if this second “ghost” soul is not remebered or honored by its descendants it will eventually fade away. But if it is honered and remembered by its descendants than it will grow more and more powerful or even become a saint or a divinity in its own right until there are many many people relying on it and giving it energy, not just its descendants.

In the ATRs the idea also exists that the gods and saints are mortal too, they are very powerful and live for hundred of thousands of years but also get tired, hungry, thirsty, etc… they aren’t the Supreme Being, but intermediaries between humans and the Supreme Being.

SO there is certainly and “egregore” aspect to it yes, maybe resembling what Jung talks about as archetypes or the collective unconscious. The genius or spirit of a people.

BTW, for anyone who is interested in learning more about this stuff here are some great resources:

BOOKS

Macumba : The Teachings of Maria-Jose, Mother of the Gods (Paperback) - explain the ATR concept of energy and destiny extremely well. written from the POV of a sympathetic outsider

Spiritual Cleansings and Psychic Defenses (Paperback) - this guy really knows his shit, you can do the rituals he describes here and improve your life immediately, also info and advice on how to find a group and whether ATRs are right for you

Urban Voodoo: A Beginners Guide to Afro-Caribbean Magic (Paperback) - A lot of people hate this book but I loved it. Not so much practical info but a great intro to the idea of it and a lot of fascinating personal stories coming from the perspective of an outsider who decided to dabble

SITES

http://www.luckymojo.com - Cat’s spell kits are fantastic she really knows her shit. I’ve also heard her Hoodoo Course is great.

Eggun, The Dead - how to make a spiritual altar to the dead and your ancestral spirits. That’s the foundation.

Trickster at the Crossroads, by Erik Davis - good overview for westerners of the the trickster god

COURSES

Michael Harner’s course in Core shamanism - this is THE guy to go to, or one of his students, if you want to learn shamanic journeying and feel like you need a structured approach. Nothing to do w. ATR BTW, just super-helpful & life-changing.

For me, I’ve already made the leap, at least in terms of acceptance, and now I’m trying to see whether there is potential for interdisciplinary synergy (one of the best ways for creative progress or ingenuity) in combining western “knowledge” with other, more “primal” arts.

I wonder. The reason is, yes, there are definitely things that western medecine could learn from the shamanic use of herbs, and there are also definitely things that western psychologists could (and do actually) learn from the shamanic concepts of the soul and its connection to nature & ancestral spirits

Tim was writing a couple of weeks back about whether or not the western ego structure precludes true polytheism. We see multiple personalities as a sign of fragmentation or weakness wheras in some indigenous cultures there is a more fluid concept of the self and even the idea of multiple souls, e.g. mongolian shamanism says people have 9 souls

In South AFrica traditional healers have an association and are licensed by the govt. There have certainly been articles in mental health journals in the US recently about how to work with clients (for therapists) who belong to these types of religions, e.g., voodoo & santeria (don’t view their beliefs as an obstacle, the journals say. Work within them instead).

But whether they could learn in the bigger picture, I dunno. I think science would have to be able to “prove” that spirits exist as more than just a psychological construct and I don’t see how that could be done. Eastern ideas will face an easier time being aborbed by western medecine they have also had more time to percolate in.

Max, what are your thoughts on the current trend (particularly in the West) of less focus on family. From the traditional generational layers of family in Europe, to the “atomic family” of the United States, to the now, where single mothers proliferate, most children have four parents, and the general decline of what we’ve interpreted as family for centuries.

I’ve little experience, theoretically or practically, with family spirits such as what you refer to, but I’ve always wondered at how this “decline” of the family structure affects the connection, communication, and meaning of such spiritual encounters. Any thoughts?

Is this perhaps leading into a more transhuman approach to how we associate more tribally now, rather than carnal as would be implied by the passing of wisdom as inclined by blood rather than worth?

Thats a great question. The ATRs really do take a tribal view of things, a lot of the worldview is based on traditional african ideas about clan loyalty and kinship.

As AKG notes the specific courtship and family living arrangements can be quite varied though overall are moving away from the extended family “it takes a village” model and towards the western “nuclear family/single mom” model, mostly because AIDS is destroying the extended family, destroying the village structure, making it impossible for the extended family to help raise a child because the generation between kids and elders is being stricken down in its prime.

I would not have said this at one time but I do now believe that the western nuclear family ideal is psychologically unhrealthy and unbalanced, like monotheism it rests too much weight on too small of a surface area, it is a hothouse for all sorts of psychosexual dysfunction and neurosis

I think our culture encourages people to detach from family so that they can be weakened and lose the insights of the past, forget their roots in nature, have no ancestry to turn to and so turn instead to the purchase of shiny new objects to fill the existential void that isolated individualism creates.

As far as where the african spirits come from or how they are conceived, human life began in africa so in a sense even people who are adopted and don’t know who their biological parents are can still look to these spirits for guidance and protection as they really are the trunk of the human DNA tree, humanity’s oldest ancestors, the great great grandparents of us all.

In my opinion. I didn’t used to think so but I now believe that aknowledgement of ancestry is an important dimension of spirituality. Its actually central to almost every single culture BUT the post-Christain west.

A lot of food for thought with this- If we accept the existance of spirits into our daily routine what kind of things do you think we’d do diffrently (as individuals- or even as a culture)?

Well, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally look to spirits to keep my life running smoothly, to guide and protect me and solve any problems I may have as these arise. So I have have a trememndous sense of being able to control and manipulate my environment and solve or completely avoid serious difficulties and keep my life filled with love, money and health.

I practical terms that means i pay a lot more attention to my dreams, yeah most are just neurological static but some significant percentage are actually beings trying to help or teach me so I appreciate the effort they make to communicate and try to honor that effort by taking their advice.

When I have important decisions to make I divine - throw the bones - and if it looks like something is going to a problem then I figure out what kind of offering I need to make or ritual to do to smooth the problem over before it arrives at my doorstep. Sometimes thats a pain but its fun too and anyway, my life is so problem free - I really am runnin’ shit in a way that I never could have believed possible - that its worth it.

I pray to my ancestors on a regular basis, make offerings to them, same with the spirits I work with.

When I first got involved it was all dramatic changes, shifts, etc. Not so much lately. I spend less time trying to solve my own problems because I just plain have less and less serious problems anymore and more time and energy now trying to learn more and increase my power so that I can help other people too.

Because thats what its about in the ATR paradigm, theres no such thing as a “solitary” (as in wicca), you are expected once you get to a certain level to start taking clients and building a community of your own so you can give back.

I remember reading about one culture in which the women ruled the family (mostly because there was no present husband/father). In this set-up, the women lived with their brothers, and when it came time to have kids, a woman would marry a man from a completely different tribe (who she may have never had contact with before). After the wedding, there would be an intense 3 to 7-day long mating “vacation”, after which the woman would return to her tribe (or the man return to his), perhaps never to meet again. If the woman became pregnant as a result of this event, so be it, if not, she’d seek out men within her tribe (though still married to a man she may never see again), and try to have children with them.

The whole cultural traditions seemed quite wild to me, but in a way it makes sense. They do the whole inter-tribe marriages as a way to promote diffusion (genetic, as well as economic), and if it doesn’t work, they just stick within their own tribe.

In this set-up, I’d imagine that ancestral spirit lines would be quite convoluted, but then again the standard one male-one female (living and raising children together, war and other duties aside) marriage structure is actually in the minority in global contexts.

Just a thought or two

The spirts of the dead play a central role in the ATRs. Your ancestral spirits are the most important spirits you have. The gods are often thought to be divinized ancestors as well. But some spirits never were human either.

Hmm, I’ve thought about this in the past but this reminded me:

Max, what are your thoughts on the current trend (particularly in the West) of less focus on family. From the traditional generational layers of family in Europe, to the “atomic family” of the United States, to the now, where single mothers proliferate, most children have four parents, and the general decline of what we’ve interpreted as family for centuries.

I’ve little experience, theoretically or practically, with family spirits such as what you refer to, but I’ve always wondered at how this “decline” of the family structure affects the connection, communication, and meaning of such spiritual encounters. Any thoughts?

Is this perhaps leading into a more transhuman approach to how we associate more tribally now, rather than carnal as would be implied by the passing of wisdom as inclined by blood rather than worth?

Rev Max, I emailed you at secretbible dot com, looking forward to your correspondence.

Your question about medicine and psychology was interesting but I can’t imagine your average western rationalist being able to accept a worldview that is so heavily based on spirits and energy and things that just seem so primitive and superstitious. Its a huge mental leap to make, most people can’t do it.

I definitately agree that it’s a huge mental leap, but what I was focused on is whether or not there is a potential to combine the knowledge and practices of “modern, western” medicine/psychology and the knowledge and practices of ATRs, magick, and shaminism. For me, I’ve already made the leap, at least in terms of acceptance, and now I’m trying to see whether there is potential for interdisciplinary synergy (one of the best ways for creative progress or ingenuity) in combining western “knowledge” with other, more “primal” arts.

That was true in my own case but I don’t know about anyone else. I like the term “endarkment” very much though.

This morning was visited by animal messenger, (I suspect). I would like to contact this guy and see ask him a question. Is this possible? I went to his website and was not easily able to find a contact email.

Yeah sure email me at friend at enemies dot com

You mentioned that you have witnessed spirit possession, and that spirits are an active and integral part in your (and I’m assuming most, if not all) ATR. What then is your viewpoint towards exorcisms? Are they real?

They often are I think yes.

You mentioned angels, do you also believe in demons, and what’s the distinction between a spirit and an angel?

In the ATR paradigm angels are identified with the catholic saints who are also identified with the forces of nature, e.g., goddesses of love and fertility and wealth, gods of iron, thunder, and agriculture, tricksters, etc. Those are the “gods”

There are lots of different kinds of spirits, e.g., trees have spirits, so do mountains, so do animals, spiders… Humans are powerful spiritual beings in life and remain so after death. Ghosts can be good or malicious, the same with plants, places animals etc.

This paradigm is basically animistic - everything is alive, everything has a spirit, a soul. Demons and spirits and angels are all part of the divine world which was created by God, just like the natural world of animals, streams, people. Everything exists for a purpose.

Are spirits the energy of a dead human being, or was it always just a spirit?

The spirts of the dead play a central role in the ATRs. Your ancestral spirits are the most important spirits you have. The gods are often thought to be divinized ancestors as well. But some spirits never were human either.

That said there’s a lot of disagreement about the origins of certain spirits, like a spirit who represents a plant in one story can also be the spirit of a rebellious slave in another story and there is no logical contradiction because we are talking about an energy that is fractalline and can replicate itself on any scale or travel to any time or place.

So as long as the energy is good the spell will work and we can know this spirit and work with him - that’s what matters. The mythology is important but not as important as actually doing stuff with them. That’s how you learn what they’re really like.

For that matter, are they extraterrestrial (or extradimensional) in origin?

Aliens aren’t really part of the mythology or the practice of ATRs. I do think they probably exist though, the Drake equation makes that seem very likely.

Any animal spirits?

Animal spirits aren’t really part of the ATR pantheons in the same way they are in Native American shamanism (power animals) but I have certainly seen and spoken with animal spirits and received messages from them, etc.

Have you ever experienced a spirit possession in yourself

Yes but I don’t remember it.

Do you think some “mental illnesses” are merely the result of spiritual ailments (or perhaps interactions with spirits or entities)? Do you think psychology and medecine could learn something from ATRs and other shamanistic practices?

The idea certainly isn’t original to me but I do think the human mind is like a radio that can tune into different frequencies.

Some people, for reasons which we don’t understand, sometimes start getting too many stations at once, or at least more than they are used to dealing with, and seem mentally ill to others.

I think some or even many of these people are actually going through a personal spiritual awakening they do not understand and aren’t culturally equipped to deal with (e.g., kundalini, shamanic sickness, etc.)

Others are being tormented by spirits that have either been sent to attack them by people who practice withcraft or which they have inadvertently drawn into their lives or always had with them, e.g., people who experience soul loss after being abused or traumatized in some way as children.

Your question about medicine and psychology was interesting but I can’t imagine your average western rationalist being able to accept a worldview that is so heavily based on spirits and energy and things that just seem so primitive and superstitious. Its a huge mental leap to make, most people can’t do it.

You mentioned that you have witnessed spirit possession, and that spirits are an active and integral part in your (and I’m assuming most, if not all) ATR. What then is your viewpoint towards exorcisms? Are they real? You mentioned angels, do you also believe in demons, and what’s the distinction between a spirit and an angel? Are spirits the energy of a dead human being, or was it always just a spirit? For that matter, are they extraterrestrial (or extradimensional) in origin? Any animal spirits? Have you ever experienced a spirit possession in yourself, or have you only witnessed it in others? Do you think some “mental illnesses” are merely the result of spiritual ailments (or perhaps interactions with spirits or entities)? Do you think psychology and medecine could learn something from ATRs and other shamanistic practices?

I know that was a bunch of questions, but I found the interview quite fascinating and thought-stirring.

1st Great interview, as usual.

2nd Had a wild night of dreams after reading the interview. This morning was visited by animal messenger, (I suspect). I would like to contact this guy and see ask him a question. Is this possible? I went to his website and was not easily able to find a contact email.

I guess its the difference between the path of surrender and the path of the Warrior. I am reminded of Tom Robbins’ Jitterbug perfume, where he talks about the sould needed “endarkenment” just as much as enlightenment. In other words (or in my interpretation) to expand to the lofty heights of wisdom, love and compassion, it is necessary to also explore and expand into the carnal, physical passionate side, otherwise you aren’t really developing fully. You are a top heavy and ultimately not encompassing the broader truth.

This statement is interesting to me, cause isnt this the case in 99 percent of the stuff we read and quote on this site? isnt the very definition of a good writer one whose works outshine what they do in ‘real life’?
ESPECIALLY in all these religious writings it seems the work is way more notorious than the writer.
Sorry if I went off topic there Tim…

Keeps the gears in my head turning, on things I want to present perhaps later this year. Good luck with the new endeavour, Max!

People would write me and argue (still do) “I just saw Sylvia Browne talk about gnosticism on Montel Williams, I can’t believe you’re saying this shit, blah blah blah.”

And I would write back “OK, my site shows how I interpreted gnosticism and scriptures like Hypostasis of the Archons, how did you read it?”

And of course, they never read Hypostasis of the Archons or any other gnostic myth, all they know about gnosticism is what some psychic said on a daytime talk show.

FWIW, I gave the first 9 years or so of my life to Christainity, when I watch movies today like The Magdalen Sisters it STILL makes my blood boil ’cause I know how true it is.

To the other poster who mentioned Buddhism and gods, this is a deep topic which I could only glancingly respond to.

I’ve studied Buddhism, my wife is a Buddhist, from my POV its all very obvious, simple and true - the insights of Buddhism. Existence is suffering, compassion is noble, desire is the root of disatisfaction etc.

It took me years to see the other side of the coin - sometimes its OK to take risks, to fight for what you want, to defend yourself from attack, etc. Sometimes you need to. It doesn’t mean you can’t still show compassion but life is meant to be lived and passionately engaged not merely contemplated.

That makes it sound like I disapprove of Buddhism. I don’t. I’m just not sure its right for everyone. Maybe not everyone needs it. Maybe some people need to buck up and grow in the other direction.

In what way did you find his personal exploration of faith, religion and magic hurtful to you and your chosen path through life?

Worth reading the whole thing in its entirety. Highly recommended

The gods are all eternal scoundrels
Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence.
Those who serve them and venerate them
May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow.
We know the gods are false and have no concrete being;
Therefore the wise man believes them not
The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions
Therefore the wise man many not rely on gods.

Islam also arose as an idealistic reform movement that in principle is iconoclastic and austere: no spirits, no saints, no magic, no representative art

That’s fine for the philosophers but go to the countryside of rural Morocco and that stuff flourishes

Just like it does in Southeast Asia, BTW

Philosophy and folk magic don’t have to contradict each other

Tibetan Buddhism combines the austere buddhist philosophy with Bon-Po shamanism

and all of its gods, devils, possessions, sorcery, etc.

So let the philosophers meditate

I like doing stuff

http://www.palmtreegarden.org/forum

The Buddhist view is that gods may lead more comfortable lives and be addicted to all the sense pleasures, but in terms of wisdom might be inferior to humans. They are even represented as coming to receive instruction from monks and even lay persons. Later on with the Hindu revival and proliferation of God-cults the Buddhists were increasingly vocal against the pretensions of God and his retinue of lesser gods. Nargarjuna the Indian Buddhist philosopher of the 2nd century CE expressed a commonly shared Buddhist view when he wrote:

The gods are all eternal scoundrels
Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence.
Those who serve them and venerate them
May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow.
We know the gods are false and have no concrete being;
Therefore the wise man believes them not
The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions
Therefore the wise man many not rely on gods.

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_attitude_to_god.htm

I’d like to believe, but I can’t until I experience it, and I want to experience it, but at the same time when I find myself in contact with people who profess some kind of ability or insight I find my skeptical switch turning up to max.

I think that’s 100% healthy. What it says to me is that you have a drive and a desire, but you’re listening to your intuition about what’s right. Just give it time. I think that’s the only missing ingredient. It’s like Max said above, that the subconscious has its own timetable that you can’t force…

hey are any of you guys queers?

I had a menage a trois once with two lesbians, does that count?

I was going to e-mail him with some questions but realized that I probably wouldn’t be able to get any answers

My wife and I are painting our living and dining rooms today, but ask away, I’ll check here later.

Anyway, thanks Tim.

hey are any of you guys queers?

Why, are you hopeful?

The part that creeped me out the most was the thing about the person covered in shrouds clinging to his building.