One has to demand the HIGHEST ethical standards from those practicing the occult, higher than those not.

I think that’s a really interesting viewpoint - mainly because so many occultists would probably argue that they are way beyond ethics at all. I might make a post dedicated to this subject…

Some people in the occult are interested in it because they value the imagination, and are interested in mysterious, surreal aspects of existence.

Others seem to be attracted towards power, and secretive ways of achieving power, and this draws some with psychopathic edges.

Agree completely about all the in-fighting and squabbling in occult circles.

I do definitely think there is a degree of the verrrry sinister in some of this stuff … see Coogan’s theories on the S.S. creating an occult underground vis-a-vis Evola, and the way this may have infiltrated everywhere … people like to portray satanists as fun-loving anti-authoritarians (which some of them are), but there are also those who worship evil as such, and that is just frightening …

You’ve also got to take into account that any religious phenomena is going to be rampant with cultish and authoritarian bytones. See “The Guru Papers”.

One has to demand the HIGHEST ethical standards from those practicing the occult, higher than those not. Since the occult often attracts the marginal, who are often acting out their rebellious impulses rather than engaging in rational anti-authoritarianism, the prospects don’t seem too hopeful in many regards.

I am totally unimpressed by your comments, guys.

I can’t speak for anybody else, but I don’t make comments so that people will be “impressed”. I make comments so as to share ideas and start meaningful discussions. I’ve personally found your comments meaningful, but I’d like to get to a deeper level with that meaning so I can better understand where you’re coming from.

I have very clear ideas what I am talking about, and in modern world any opinion might be dubbed “bigotry”.

I’m not sure about all that, but I thought it was wild that you said Communism was an occult doctrine. I’d still like to hear why you think that.

Still, it’s not my aim either to persuade or dissuade anyone in anything. [...] I’d better move on to follow my own aims.

What is your aim then? I’d personally find hearing about what you love and what you believe in strongly more useful than getting into an argument over specifics of where our experiences differ.

My opinions are mine and they are 100 percent proven by experience.

And that’s all anybody can really ask, I think. The thing to keep in mind though, is that maybe other people’s experiences will “100 percent prove” completely different opinions. That seems to be very much happening above.

I got friends, who practice Toasism and guees what, they go twice a year to China and won’t waste their time on the web. Another group of friends practice techniques described by Castaneda, all of them are actually into “action” and far from rattling on.

Good for them! They’ve clearly found something that works for them and are moving forward with it. We should all be so lucky - but please, in the meantime, allow us our further explorations.

Obviously people who admire Cohelio and keep silence on Castaneda are sure to get all “truth” they can possibly embrace.

Please see my original article above: “My personal favorite is when occultists accuse other occultists of not being ‘occult enough’.” Again - I’m pleased to hear that you’ve found an author whose work resonates with you deeply. That is quite an experience to have!

I feel sorry for you guys.

Compassion is one of the greatest virtues there is. I’m honored that our words would engage you in any kind of emotional response, especially that one.

I am totally unimpressed by your comments, guys. I have very clear ideas what I am talking about, and in modern world any opinion might be dubbed “bigotry”.

youre right pam and i cant speak for anyone else but if the lyrics i wrote were part of that then im sorry, i had the song playing and was relaxing with a brandy and the song when listened to is very serine but like most of my music its strong words spoken softly so i am genuinely sorry if i was part of making you feel like that. I had read in youre earlier post that you said “the world is buisness”, 1/3 of the world live in dire poverty and a child dies every 30 seconds from the same so no the world in my opinion is not about buisness as a large amount of people spend each day trying to survive. I have never nor would i call anyone stupid as you did in an earlier post, others may attack but i put my point forcefully without personal judgement calls because you cant know anyone from posts that are posted here. I cant speak for anyone else but im sorry if my words played a part in the way you felt.

And perish forbid that my curiosity should corrupt poor vulnerable me!

-Hail Satan.

A peculiar discussion arose in response to my recent post on what I hate about the occult. In particular, the conversation ha [...]

Well, I still maintain that occult has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the truth, on the contrary it’s a way to lure people into slippery path of misconceptions and vieling the reality. Since the reality is much scary than people normally think it is. There’s an esoteric part to any world religion or tradition. The occult does not seek truth, it’s a system of “reality management” and quite often at the expense of the others, that’s what it is. Have you ever met a “real occult practitioneer”? All chances are that if you do he or she is likley to tap into your inner enrgy and use it to unlock yet one more misleading “mystery”.

that is pure mysticism: poisting a theory of subjective truth as a universal truism. next.

Occultists are sort of possessed with the idea of true “enlightenment”, well, it’s basically more authoritarian model than any religion and they do not mind harm done for the sake of abstract aim, which seems quite real to them.

i am in doubt about your ability to make any opinion about any subject whatsoever by that kind of statement. you happen to be very ignorant of the most influential of all modern occult technologies, chaos magic.

The world already knows the biggest experiment in this field - the communism. As for the bypassing the dogma - well, everyone should have a set of principles, it might be called dogma, otherwise one becomes a plaything for the powers beyond one’s remit. Well, in fact, it’s not my aim to dissuade you from your infatuation with the “truth” and the occult. Unfortunately people get seduced by promise of truth, since it gives a good boost to thier egoes.

sorry Pam: capitalism is a far more successful cult at selling lies than communism.

the united states marine corps is far better at brainwashing individuals than any other magickal order on earth.

you betray your own sympathies without aiding your argument against communism, magick, authoritarinism, and self righteousness. i’m absolutely sure your ego is not boosted in the least explaining all this remit wisdom, a priori, to us.

since it gives a good boost to thier egoes.

NICK DRAKE………FROM THE MORNING
A day once dawned, and it was beautiful
A day once dawned from the ground
Then the night she fell
And the air was beautiful
The night she fell all around.

So look see the days
The endless coloured ways
And go play the game that you learnt
From the morning

And now we rise
And we are everywhere
And now we rise from the ground
And see she flies
And she is everywhere
See she flies all around
So look see the sights
The endless summer nights
And go play the game that you learnt
From the morning.

Unfortunately people get seduced by promise of truth, since it gives a good boost to thier egoes.

So far, I haven’t seen better evidence of that than your comments above, Pam. You seem to have just as firm a belief in the truth of your own viewpoints as anyone here - perhaps even more.

Communism is occult? Occultists are out to suck up your inner energy? Enlightenment is an authoritarian notion? While I may not fully agree with or understand your points, I’m interested in what you have to share, and why you feel the way you do. If you’d like to elaborate any of the above points, I would enjoy discussing it with you.

prunesquallori Says:

Thanks for link and that was what i was trying to convey,cheers

Most occultism is theurgic and has absolutely nothing to do with influence or power, and in most cases, is about uncovering the nature of reality- truth, which is occluded, hence, occult, the search for what is hidden. The occult is vilified because it seeks to bypass dogma and institutionalized belief.

(and funny you should mention Taoism, a venerable occult institution…and Buddhism has many respected occult traditions)

I dunno if thats really it. My only attitude is that if life isn’t joyous, you’re doing something wrong. For me, thats all the affirmation I need.

Love is the law, love under will.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will. that pretty much covers any question wrt life and how to live it.

Does it really though? I don’t find much solace in that.

Well, I believe this site perfectly fits its name - popular enerttanment for the bored.

I’m sorry to hear that you’re bored, Pam. But I am pleased to hear that you’re entertained!

Also: Melodies from the beyond

Personally, i believe that they did study the occult. Though I would also label the occult to be “the unknown” or “secret knowledge/wisdom”.

I had in mind when writing this the ancient aboriginal art in australia, when settlers arrived there they claimed the land had no ownership and so it was for many years. The aboriginal people had offered forward pictorial art as proof of ownership wich was dismissed by the settlers. It turns out that all the seemingly meaningless art was documented by the aboriginal people on there transition from what they call the dream world. The symbols are of fire and snakes etc but they say there early ancestors lived in the dream world and this present world (conciousness) was seeded from that world. The art turns out to be the first kind of land claim document and is being fought in the courts. When i say study what i meant was the occult in any form is not a pet in a cage to be studied, poked and proded, to me its a living metaphorical and allegorical language that needs to be subjectively embraced. I personaly think that ancient conciousness was quite different and spirituality was never stronger than then
but its just an idea that seems to fit for me, could be wrong.

I dont believe ancient tribes or early man studied the occult but it was a reality in the most subjective primal definate sense.

Personally, i believe that they did study the occult. Though I would also label the occult to be “the unknown” or “secret knowledge/wisdom”. Most cultures, no matter how old, looked into the dark, peered through the keyhole, and wondered, “what’s out (or in) there?”

That said, my biggest pet peeve with the occult, is the lack of understanding, both within and without. People who are on the outside are too afraid of things they know not about, and those within tend to me too consumed by their own maps of the unexplored that they don’t really consider the fact that there could be more to the unknown than their own map (or they could just be wrong).

I’ve spent a shocking amount of money on books since getting into all this. But a lot of the stuff *does* have content.

Please dont get me wrong i know theres alot of good content in books and i probably undersell my own reading on purpose but people who can create art are magicians and alchemists to me because i get a subjective high through it that brings me back to earth and for me thats a positive thing.

I also have trouble balancing suspension-of-disbelief with skepticism. On the one hand, you’re supposed to be detached and question everything, but on the other, I want this stuff to “work” (although I haven’t put forth too much effort in that direction because if it does start working, it’ll probably scare my pants right off. I’ve already got coincidences following me around….)

Why doesn’t occult stuff look super awesome?

Maybe the best occultists don’t even know they’re occultists. There’s a lot of amazing design going on these days; a graphic artist who can create “something” out of “nothing” is doing magic (and likely making good money, to boot).

Part of occult practice is learning to understand and manipulate symbols. I’m a terrible visual artist; if I were better at bringing things from my imagination down into reality I probably wouldn’t need the occult. Maybe that’s true for a lot of occultists. (Fell being a notable exception, of course).

Endless Footnoting

I’ve spent a shocking amount of money on books since getting into all this. But a lot of the stuff *does* have content.

part of the problem with most areas of the occult is that they touch on or exist fully in territories which are outside of language.

That’s a feature, not a bug.

It’s kind of like, in the occult, there is no road map on how to live life, but there are lots of directions on how build a car and soup it up. Once you build it, you still have to figure out where to drive it, but at least it’s faster than walking. I just made that up. I don’t know if it makes sense yet.

There’s so much more to religion and spirituality than simply upsetting mom and dad with your new pentagram necklace.

And sometimes there’s nothing more to religion and spirituality than upsetting mom and dad with your pentagram. Like the Legion says: “Eat it, grandpa.”

Before you know it, you’re lost in a maze of books and references which may or may not be ultimately meaningless.

Life may be ultimately meaningless, but it’s not so bad if you’re enjoying yourself, is it?

The other questions of existence become a moot point after a certain point also when you realize that it’s very possible that ultimate truths simply can’t be expressed…

That frustrates me. That is one of my pet peeves. Just because it is very possible that they cannot be expressed does not mean that they cannot be expressed.

Can you safely explore the effects of belief while still questioning the core foundations of those beliefs? I would say yes, and would further suggest that failure to do so lends itself to stagnation and catastrophe.

I will concede that going in circles probably may be a waste if it doesn’t do anything, but going in circles also allows one to reflect on the material differently with each pass.

…how can we reconcile all the weird research and mental questioning to the simple joys and challenges of every-day life? None of the occult books seem to address any of that, any of these basic questions about what’s life for, and how do we live it to it’s fullest?

Unless you’re dead when you’re doing your reading and thinking, I don’t know how you can separate it from your life. Contemplation is one of the many simple joys and challenges of my every-day life, and I don’t see how or why I would unwind it from the rest. Perhaps I am just strange.

I don’t think that the place of an occult book is to tell you how to reconcile your study with your life, or to even address that point, any moreso than a biology textbook should or a study on Shakespeare should. You reconcile it with yourself, and are now pursuing it because that is what you want to do.

Unless you’re reading self-help books.

Occult art did not mean red and black spinning pen tacl;es until teenagers found the internet.