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Obese Wiccans
A friend recommended to me a book called Urban Voodoo by S. Jason Black and Christopher Hyatt of New Falcon Publications. The book details the explorations of these two individuals into Voodoo and other traditional African religious and magical practices.
There are definitely some interesting items in the book about the first-hand magical experiences of these gentlemen. But there is also an inordinate amount of time devoted to bad-mouthing. Christianity has several chapters to itself, with no apparent purpose other than to say how bad of a religion it is. It certainly does nothing to prove their expertise in Voodoo than to blast other religions with empty rhetoric.
And a great deal of effort also goes into trashing other occult sub-cultures. So much so that I personally can’t stand it. Take this paragraph against Wicca as an example, from page 119. I mean, I’ve had my occasional jabs at it as well, but even I find this kind of offensive:
For example, we have had many experiences with the Wicca community in southern California. These groups were invariably dominated by extremely obese, loud women - Israel Regardie used to call them “tent women” - whose goal at any gathering seemed to be to push people around. This was usually accompanied by the sort of verbal moralizing (”that’s black magic” or “he’s incurring bad karma”) that many of us can remember from Sunday school. These people claim to be nature mystics, but the clinical obesity, poor hygiene, chain smoking and chronic bickering tell a very different story. Jason was once shown a particularly pompous and moralizing article in a “Neo-Pagan” magazine and in annoyance, he asked (about the author), “Does she weigh four hundred pounds?” His friend replied in some indignation that he knew her and she was quite thin. Looking at him in the eye Jason asked, “What’s wrong with her?” After a moment’s silence: “Well, she’s kind of cross-eyed and has a neurological disorder.”
It is not our intention to be cruel here, merely to point out some unpleasant truths about the “New Age” or any other movement.
Calling somebody you don’t like “fat” is about as pointless and juvenile as calling them “gay” or “ugly.” In fact, I’m suprised they didn’t trot out the old chestnut of calling these women “dykes.” They’re really only a hair’s breath away from it at this point. The thing that really gets me is that they go on and on about how voodoo is misunderstood and denigrated throughout history by the West. But they seem not to see the irony in them continuing the cycle of denigration and name-calling. Of greater use would perhaps be an explanation of commonalities and differences between Wicca and Voodoo - or Christianity for that matter. Whatever useful practical advice this book might convey would have been better distilled down into a 25 page volume without all this unnecessary trash mixed in.
- Obese Wiccans, Part 2
- Independence Day
- Groundhog Day & Religion
- Traditional Greek Religion Survives?
- Pagans Testing Christians
- Prev: Meditation, Pornography & the Male Mind
- Next: Adjustments
February 4th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
Oh what a wonderful opinion. Sounds like the book was written by the authro of this post
February 4th, 2006 at 11:16 pm
thank you for that, Tim. I appreciate it when bullshit is called for what it is.
February 5th, 2006 at 12:54 am
In my sophmore year of high school there was a chubby wiccan girl constantly bothered by a a girl who taunted her in gym class. The ‘Wiccan girl’ told me once how she wished the ‘mean girl’ would get fat. By the time Junior year started the ‘mean girl’ was considerably fatter than the ‘wiccan girl’. Although I doubt it was magic or karma, I take it as a lesson nonetheless not to say anything super mean about anyone.
February 5th, 2006 at 2:42 am
I haven’t read the Urban Voodoo book, but I’ve read another one of Hyatt and Black’s works, Pacts with the Devil. It’s kind of in the vein you describe above, on top of which it somehow left me with the abiding impression that, despite obviously wanting to portray themselves as all-knowledgeable when it comes to dealing with demons and so forth, neither man has actually done so particularly often. And I find it hard to escape the feeling that Hyatt’s Extreme Individual Institute is, frankly, a scam, although if what Ben Mack said in the interview you did with him, it doesn’t appear to be a particularly successful one (the $1000 upfront fee must put people off).
February 5th, 2006 at 11:14 am
The “fat” critique demonstrates woeful ignorance about the veins of coercion that underly our 21st Century Western concepts of beauty (for both males and females).
Though I personally view gluttony as a sin (since it involves unnecessary killing of other living beings), it is unclear to me that most people who are described as “fat” eat any less mindfully than those who grace the covers of our fashion and beauty magazines, who owe their status to hours of mechanized exercise (and perhaps plastic surgery).
So, if these authors are going to insinuate that people they deign to classify as “ugly” are therefore less worthy, then they have learned very little from their practice and are really not worth listening to.
end of rant
February 5th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
actually, the stricktly moral qualities as describing wiccan women seems pretty accurate- at least in the four states ive lived in. this would be the same kind person you chastised a while back for “making progress” for religious toleration by wearing a pentagram neckless. stereotypes dont exist in a vacumm, they grow based on a collective experience with a type. my experieances with lezbians is that they usually wear the label dyke on their sleeves. in fact, the usual tendency of lezbians and gays on the whole is that they want everyone on earth to know they’re gay or a dyke. the lezbians that dont are called lipstick lezbians by lezbians and nonlezbians. being a lipstick lezbian is not a derogatory term in itself, although with certain lezbians it sure is. neither is fat wiccan necessarily derogatory in itself. stereotypes dont exist in a vacumm. meet some wiccans at a large (no pun intended) pagan gathering and tell me that this type doesnt exist. but since after all,
the same logix is being used with christianity and vodoo to bring about something not so lame. criticism is directed at raising the standards of people in the context they are living their lives. i think all the mentioned religion followers here need more critics, esspecially christianity.
February 5th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
oh, and to continue my role as devils advocate, new falcon is the playground of christopher hyatt and other occult writers that take a serious approach to magick and are more than willing to jab at people not focused with their magick and moral high ground. they dont give one throw about morals and that is what allows them to publish some of the most cutting edge research on psychnautical explorations. if it sounds fragmentry or not fully developed its because they’re really mouthpieces for a huge esoteric current built on really monumental works of previous eras. their style is still guerrilla, raw, countercultural iconoclasts with a devil may care attitude. in fact, the success they’ve been having in this field for the last 20 or 30 years makes them unique in the world of occult publishers and i have a long list of titles on my to buy list on their website. if you read any of their books and dont find _something_ that challenges your ego you’re beyond what they are trying to facilitate.
February 5th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
…they dont give one throw about morals…
I’m all for ignoring conventional (and artificial) morality systems. But, in my opinion, the purpose of the occult is to get you somewhere, and that somewhere is not chasing your ego around to whatever whim it happens to be wanting to take you. Endlessly berating people because they are not (daring|pretty|theoretical|practical|occult|whatever) as you is, well, not where I want to go.
I mean, I’m happy to let them do whatever it is they do. And, since I haven’t read the material, I can’t really say for sure that they’re as far away from where I want to be as I think they are. (I’m merely extrapolating from Tim’s quotes, which of course is dangerous) But, are they speaking to me when they’re criticizing wiccans for being too fat fat fat and dikey and Christians for being too (fill in the blank, there’s plenty to criticize)? Probably not.
February 5th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
When people can’t find another way to invalidate someone, they’ll sink to the extremely grade school level of attempting to criticize their personal appearance, or exaggeration of a habit, to invalidate him. I *believe* this is called an Ad Hoc attack (I might be using this poorly though).
To make the assertion that someone is somehow less of a practitioner of a spiritual path because they aren’t Model-Thin (Surprise surprise, *most people on earth aren’t*) or because they are “bossy” (most people who don’t know crap-all *do* become defensive when someone who at least marginally knows what they’re talking about calls them out), or because their personal morals don’t match those of the author is possibly amongst the most glaring indicators that the person in question is attacking from an incredibly weak personal position.
I actually know of the author in an odd sort of third hand way, and from what I have gleaned they are pretty much *no one* to be criticising anyone else insofar as personal obnoxiousness or anything else related to a personal appearance.
I do notice that a lot of projection goes on in the whole Neo-Pagan scene. I suspect this is a chunk of it as well.
Thank you for helping to dispel a little bit more baloney.
February 5th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Heh-heh-heh. Rapid weight gain is not something that typically happens to teenagers. If your chubby wiccan had any talent at all, given that she expressed motive, I would be surprised if the mean girl didn’t end up fat!!
February 5th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Andrew:
Yes, that is the goal of criticism - when it’s done constructively. To simply call people fat and pushy does nothing to raise standards or improve concepts of anything. It simply cuts people off at the knees.
Why do Christians need criticism? I no longer accept this as a given. And for that matter, why on earth would you try to reach Christians to “raise their standards” by way of a book about Voodoo/magic? Suggesting that’s what they’re doing is absurd.
As I’ve said before, there are a lot of things about Wiccans that annoy me. Their weight and physical appearance are not acceptable items on that list. Do I think they need to be challenged in lots of areas? Sure. But I also think that the authors of this book need to, perhaps even moreso, because they believe themselves to be so superior.
Ha! “If it sounds fragmentary or not fully developed” it’s because it is! There’s simply nothing cutting edge or monumental about saying Christianity is bad or that Wiccans are fat. If that’s the cutting edge of psychonautical exploration, then I’m going to hang up my explorer’s hat and row for shore once and for all.
February 5th, 2006 at 9:02 pm
Hang up the hat? Don’t jump the gun on that one, Tim.
Honestly, though, it seems like if you wanted to study Vodoun, you should check out Maya Deren’s Divine Horsemen. I don’t want to say it’s about all you need, but she does an amazing job of cataloguing and experiencing her exploration of this unique religion. She documents getting possessed by Erzulie, and her varied conversations with Papa Ghuede. If you haven’t already given this a look, you should. I flat-out do not trust someone like Hyatt to give any real understanding of this religion, but that’s me.
February 5th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
…’experiencing her exploration…’ Jesus. ‘Expressing her exploration.’ I need to see if my brain’s warranty has expired, yet.
Something a bit more on the topic of fat dyke Wiccans - isn’t it great how everyone wants to be the underdog? Hyatt is arguing the ‘Voodoo’ is an oppressed, misunderstood system, while critiquing Wiccans for being overbearing, obnoxious, insane. An oppressor, really. Whereas most people into Wicca seem to consider themselves horribly oppressed, and are more than willing to catalogue histories of abuse. At the hands of Christians. Many of whom express the belief that they are constantly under attack from secularism on all fronts.
Everyone wants to be the Rebel Alliance, no one wants to be the Empire.
Oh, and Hitoshura - it’s an Ad Hominem argument, I believe. Personal attacks. Fucking obnoxious.
What I really love is that the things Hyatt writes - they aren’t ‘personal attacks,’ they’re ‘unpleasant truths.’ Hah! Some people get awfully hardcore about keeping it real, huh? Like they’re in some kind of one-upmanship contest, to see who will keep it the most ‘real’ - that being a cocktail of cynicism, doubt, and a double of irony. Destruction without creation - being willing to tear everyone down, but never building anything in their place.
February 5th, 2006 at 11:12 pm
Woohoo. Don’t mind me, I was not yet caffienated after a *LONG* late shift, so my grammar setting was apparently DEAD. Thank you for the correction.
I think that Chris Rock put that kind of thing the best (paraphrasing): ‘Keeping it real–real stupid’.
If these people put an eighth of the effort they exert towards tearing each other down toward actual, you know, *study*, or towards accomplishing something like social solidarity, or addressing social abuses within their community/communities, these groups might not be as rife with backbiting horseshit and lunacy as it often tends to be. :/
February 5th, 2006 at 11:35 pm
I’ve seen this attitude crop up really often in books by so-called skeptics like Martin Gardner and James Randi– they claim to be doing objective analyses of what they perceive as nonsense, but in practice, they can’t keep their contempt for the subject matter, or their contempt for the people who believe in it, out of things. The self-righteous sneering and the insults directed at the subjects become almost unbearable, even if they’re writing on legitimate topics. It comes off looking anything but scientific; more like an excuse to vent childish insults against people they don’t like.
“Fat loser” comments seem to proliferate in some of the scummier areas of the Internet, often justified by remarks such as “I’m just telling the truth” or “the truth hurts, doesn’t it?” There seems to be a concept that if someone is physically unappealing, nothing they have to say on spiritual topics (or on any topic, really) can possibly be of any value. (I wonder what happened to the idea that cultivating the spirit at the expense of the flesh is desirable. Granted, I think that view is excess in the opposite direction, but the idea that attractiveness goes hand in hand with spiritual worth seems to me to be the epitome of the worst of the New Age. And one has to admit that, for instance, most depictions of the Buddha couldn’t exactly star in a Slim-Fast ad.)
February 5th, 2006 at 11:58 pm
I think there is an unfortunate proliferation of a few things in metaphysical communities.
1) No Balls. You’re not mainstream. Unless you’re Christian in the US, you are *never going to be mainstream*. Stop attempting to “morally bleach” your beliefs to “fit in” or be “accepted”. That’s never done anything any good. Learn to deal with some adversity for the love of anything at all. LOL. Find some guns, do some critical thinking and self examination, and stick to them.
2) Hypocrisy. I could spend a page or so ranting about people playing “My Improbable Set Of Beliefs can beat up Your Improbable Set Of Beliefs” but I believe the people here know the score.
3) “Internet Bravado”. A lot of people would do a lot better actually *living* than *debating*, if you know what I mean. Everyone’s Gandalf the Great behind their monitor, but I seriously doubt that the variety of cheese eaters that are being discussed would have anything *like* the intestinal fortitude to spout a fraction of the garbage that they spout about vague “others” to the Other’s faces–mostly because they’d probably get their “badass” teeth kicked in, literally or figuratively.
The Chubby Wicca girl story will continue to bring a smile to my face for days to come.
February 6th, 2006 at 9:25 am
“my experieances with lezbians is that they usually wear the label dyke on their sleeves. in fact, the usual tendency of lezbians and gays on the whole is that they want everyone on earth to know they’re gay or a dyke. the lezbians that dont are called lipstick lezbians by lezbians and nonlezbians. being a lipstick lezbian is not a derogatory term in itself, although with certain lezbians it sure is.’
as a lesbian myself (spelled with an “s”) i am heartened to hear that the lesbians you know are not ashamed of their lesbianism and havent sought to hide it from you. You don’t seem very grateful, in fact, you seem annoyed that gay people are not secretive about their identity. Lipstick lesbians aren’t trying to disguise their homosexuality by the way, it is simply the way they, as lesbians, prefer to dress. and they are quite popular in many lesbian circles, receiving much less approbation than, say, ignorant straight men.
of course a discussion of fat wiccans would lead to dyke bashing.
February 6th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
There are types that can be found in many groups. One that spans several is the obese moralist. I’ve met some who were Catholic nuns and some who were wicca - I met one once who was wicca when she pounced on my but had been a nun. And some are just obnoxious about whatever is handy - one of them I’ve seen twice with a 15 year gap between encounters and both times it was about my 10th Century Persian garb having pockets.
But the observation does not enhance understanding of either Voodoo or Wicca. The fact that the type is universal invalidates it as a characteristic of any group. I just bet that if you are in the right circles long enough, a fat practitioner of Voodoo will obnoxiously (the obnoxiousness enhanced by the fact she’s right) criticize your practice.
Actualy, I have this theory that religions are all thin paint over a collection of behaviors - “Fundimentalist” is the real thing, “Christian” or “Muslim” are just the flavor.
February 6th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
I laughed out loud at the excerpt from the book, because I know the type they are talking about. The laughter stems not from ridiculing someone else, but in disocvering that I am not the only one who notices this phenomenon.
Yes, the authors could have been more sensitive (mainly because it discredits their research) but I think they were trying to be funny. I deduce this because they didn’t resort to using the actual language of the mean– calling them “fat” for example, or “lardo” or “wide load”. It may seem mean, but calling someone “clinically obese” is not the same as referring to them as a “whale” or a “fatbody”.
In a way, the excerpt pokes fun at the authors’ own cynicism, in the last part where Jason asks what is wrong with an essayist who isn’t fat.
This is not a defense of the excerpt. Rather, it’s a recognition that certain types of people gravitate to certain types of subcultures: nerds like computers and the Internet; poor minorities end up in gangs; low IQ meatheads make the football team… Yes, they’re stereotypes, but I think their observations fits the irreverent tone evident in the rest of that excerpt.
Take it from me, a person who takes pride in using ad hominem attacks on people: they could be a whole lot more offensive. But the wrong reaction is to get all uppity about it– they’re joking, and I find it funny because I went to school with a lot of overweight wannabe Wiccan/Goth girls who smoked cigarettes and played Pagan Etiquette mind-fuck games with their less-aggressive friends.
It’s not a universal truth, but then again most humor doesn’t pretend to be all encompassing.
February 6th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Tim, you left out the part that puts this in context
Can’t remember the exact verbiage but it was something to the effect of:
Of course this book is not aimed at people from Benin who have been initiated by the local head man it is aimed at people who are looking to understand from the outside.
Its about one guy and how he got to know and work with a certain entity.
IMHO it doesn’t matter what groups you join, you can join all the groups in the world but if you can’t communicate with and feel the spirit its all a waste of time.
In that vein Hyatt appears to be trying to draw a distinction between:
A. The way people think things SHOULD work
B. The way they actually DO work
Its an important distinction, but not everyone can accept it. Crudely expressed I guess, but it made me laugh anyway.
I should add that the spirit he is describing working with IS rude and IS disrespectful and IS irreverent and slippery and evasive and likes to stir up trouble in order to make people think so if thats what you got out of it then I say mission accomplished.
And on a similar note, Wiccans do have some interesting beliefs:
- whatever you do comes back to you 3 times
- its “bad karma” to try to influence people (eg., prospective employers, sexual partners, bullies, etc.)
- all gods are the manifestation of one great mother goddess who isn’t particularly picky about offerings or names or whatever as long as its all done in the spirit of pacifism and self-esteem.
…etc.
Now, the question that occurs to me is: are those beliefs that have been tested and tried out over a period of thousands of years?
Or are they a reflection of modern political correctness, ideas which have more to do with contemporary social agendas than what is EFFECTIVE?
We could ask: Were the ancient Celts and Vikings really feminist vegetarians?
We could also ask: Were the ancient druids really absorbed in Hindu concepts such as karma and reincarnation?
And where are the prehistoric relics of pentagrams from this lost prehistoric Wiccan matriarchy anyway?
etc.
Ultimately though, different strokes for different folks.
February 6th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
No I didn’t. The *context* is that its a book about a modern urban approach to voodoo. The section this quote appears in has really nothing to do with that subject. I’m not mad that these guys said this stuff - they’re free to say what they want. And yeah, sure, a lot of Wiccans are fat. Fine. None of that really offends me. What annoys me is that I spent my time and money on a book that I thought was about something else entirely. If I wanted a book that made fun of Wiccans and Christians and called them all fat and stupid and evil, I would have bought the book called “Wiccans Are Fat & Christians are Dumb,” - not a book called “Urban Voodoo.”
February 6th, 2006 at 10:08 pm
We are all sterio typed. ……………if there’s one thing we have in comon. No justice. No peace. Mlk.jr
February 6th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Then you should return it and get a refund.
February 6th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
You make several excellent points. However, I’m still trying to figure out why people feel the need to bring personal appearance into it, and why the *weight issue* becomes an invalidation point (except that Americans are fundamentally obsessed with insisting that their women look like 13 year old adolescent boys, but seriously).
Shouldn’t it be enough that they’re moralist in a truly irritating (and potentially hackneyed and hypocritical) fashion? This is supposed to be about the mind and the soul, right? That is what they purport to be attacking, right? (At least from what they seem to be implying. Mind you this is one excerpt from a larger work, so I might be a little bit out on a limb here.)
I mean, hygiene is one thing, I can’t personally abide people who don’t bathe, but I personally think that suggesting a shower is a bit more constructive than “hurr hurr hurr you smell”. Which seems to be the level that these charmers are at.
I’m actually extremely disgusted by Israel Regardie’s delightful little perjorative, I gave him slightly more credit than that. Obviously my mistake.
How do people expect to come off as “spiritual”, or even marginally mature adults, if they can’t be bothered to rise above schoolyard-level when making an arguement?
Lowbrow cruelty isn’t humor; It points out a fundamental lack of cleverness. Attempting to pass the first off as the second to me is just further indication of said lack.
Yet and still I’m willing to bet that they think they’re better than people who randomly scream obscenities from their car windows.
Truth is, though, they’re not.
Personally I’d like to see the fat, thin, rangy, tall, short, etc. obnoxious moralists run over by a truck. I think the world would be a much better place. However, the person in question would be right under the wheels next to his much derided ‘tent women’. Now *that* would be funny IMHO.
February 6th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
Everyone wants to be the Rebel Alliance, no one wants to be the Empire.
February 7th, 2006 at 1:35 am
it’s strange.
I meant to hold on to this book but it ended up in the Sell/Trade stack and i lost it.
it really wasn’t that excellent of a read other than them discussing their early attemps at invoking loa, and shit.
BUT…what was weird, was, I got this book from some Amazon re-seller and it had been signed by Jason S. Black to someone named John..
Black had scrawled something in sharpie along the lines of:
“John, go out with this and create mayhem and chaos.”
February 8th, 2006 at 4:17 am
You know, I love reading the inscriptions, the martgin scribbling, etc., especially in the very old books.
March 1st, 2006 at 4:22 am
[…] I was all set to write a really mean send-up of this person’s response to one of my older articles, but then I realized there’s really no point. Either this per […]
September 2nd, 2006 at 10:57 am
[…] The obvious question I have now is: how does this information apply to pagans? More than one commenter has noticed that neo-pagans tend to be overweight. I am overweight as are the majority of pagans I know. Maybe we have something in common with Baptists: we tend to “live in our heads” and separate the physical from the spiritual. […]