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What A Life Is Worth
A really good side discussion arose on my post about having a mission in life. I suggested that maybe the reason we’re “sent” here at all is simply to experience life - that being alive is a mission all in itself. A reader named Fatima seems to have taken offense to that notion, arguing that the lives we live are not all equal:
Then how does the Great Architect / God / Allah / the Universe / plug-in-whatever-name-you-want, sort out those who have done well from those who sucked and wasted the time given to them?
A bit too easy, sitting around for 75 years, doing nothing out of life than munching on Frito-Lays, whatching Oprah until death comes reaping souls out, and somehow it would be fullfilling one’s mission just the same as, say, what the Gandhis or Mother Teresas did…
And JP has an excellent rebuttal to this:
Now how can you honestly say that people who munch frito lays and watch Oprah are somehow less valuable than Gandhi without knowing each and every single one of those individuals? What if some Oprah-Watching-Frito-Muncher (OWFM for short) gave birth to a future doctor who saves ten thousand lives somehow? Or what if said OWFM realizes inner peace through the medium of Oprah and Fritos and their very act of self-knowledge and self-worth acts as a spiritual catalyst on a level we’re unable to perceive?
This whole idea that a great portion of the population are OWFMs is nonsense, IMHO. Every single person’s life has value and purpose, no matter how superior we think we are to them. This concept of the modern person as worthless is particularly disturbing and counter-productive. Yeah, some people love to watch Oprah, and love to buy clothes and love to eat way too much. But the same people also love their families and pets and friends, feel sympathy for those in need, get scared when stuff happens that we don’t understand. *That’s* ultimately what’s important to each individual, not how many “souls they saved” or how enlightened they happen to be. And if the “Grand Architect” or whatever has a problem with this, then it’s got some serious issues ‘cause it’s the thing that’s responsible.
So the question seems to be: is Gandhi better than somebody who “reads” TV all day and eats junk food? If so, what makes one better and one “worse”? What’s the difference between two lives? What’s “worth” more or does it somehow all equal out in the end? There’s a really beautiful dream passage that I found in a book and I think would do well repeating here:
I was standing at the top of a very high tower, alone, looking down upon myriads of birds flying in one direction; every kind of bird was there, all the birds in the world. It was a noble sight, this vast aerial river of birds. but now in some mysterious fashion the gear was changed, and time speeded up, so that I saw a generation of birds, watched them break their shells, flutter into life, mate, weaken, falter and die. Wings grew only to crumble; bodies were sleek and then, in a flash, bled and shrivelled; and death struck everywhere at every second.
What was the use of all this blind struggle towards life, this eager trying of wings, this hurried mating, this flight and surge, all this gigantic meaningless biological effort? As I stared down, seeming to see every creature’s ignoble little history almost at a glance, I felt sick at heart. It would have been better if not one of them, if not one of us all, had been born, if the struggle ceased forever. I stood on my tower, still alone, still desperately unhappy.
But now the gear was changed again, and time went faster still, and it was rushing by at such a rate, that the birds could not show any movement, but were like an enormous plain sown with feathers. But along this plain, flickering through the bodies themselves, there now passes a sort of white flame, trembling, dancing, then hurrying on; and as soon as I saw it, I knew that this white flame was life itself, the very quintessence of being; and then it came to me, in a rocket-burst of ecstasy, that nothing mattered, nothing could ever matter, because nothing was real but this quivering and hurrying lambency of beings. Birds, men, or creatures not yet shaped and coloured, all were of no account except so far as this flame of life travelled through them. It left nothing to mourn over behind it; what I had thought as tragedy was mere emptiness or a shadow show; for now all real feeling was caught and purified and danced on ecstatically with the white flame of life. I had never felt before such deep happiness as I knew at the end of my dream of the tower and the birds.
This would have to be the answer I would give to this question. What’s yours?
- What Is My Attention Worth To Companies?
- Life, the Universe, and Everything
- Life’s Mission
- Associate thingie
- What’s a Twitter account worth?
- Prev: Who’s the Real Nazi?
- Next: Traces from Beyond Update
March 2nd, 2006 at 1:53 pm
AND ANOTHER THING! When we consider some lives more ‘valuable’ than others for whatever reason, AREN’T WE THE REAL NAZIS?
;)
March 2nd, 2006 at 3:17 pm
That dream passage is one of the most eloquent, simple, and beautiful ‘descriptions’ of the mystical experience that I have ever read. Thank you for posting it.
March 2nd, 2006 at 4:04 pm
All lives have equal values. But when somebody actively chooses to waste it, then that disregard for the gift of life is despisable.
I guess my allegory shocked some. How about this, most of us know Plato’s cave allegory right?
So imagine each of us is born in an individual cave, with a door. And we are all locked in. When we a born, we just open our eyes and look around. Written on the wall is this:
“Hey dude, you’re locked in. Sucks ass right? But hey, I’m nice, I actually hid the key inside the cell. All you got to do is move you freakin ass and find it. See you outside!”
Now, those JP baptised OWFM are those who decide to say:
“Fuck man, I have to do some work now? Do they really think I am gonna move my ass to find this stupid key? Hell no! You there, YOU hand me this key and then you’ll see me outside”
And they sit on their asses waiting for the key while staring at their belly button (i.e. Oprah!)
Those “Gandhis” and “Mother Teresas” are those who said:
“Fuck man, this is cool! Let’s find the key!”
They got off their asses and found it, got out and are currently high-fiving each other outside along with the guy who locked us in.
The rest of us are either still wondering what’s the point of all of this, whether or not it is “elitist” to hide the key and ask us to find it cos it is too unfair that some (the nazis) might find it and not others (even though we ALL have a key in our rooms), others are too busy figuring out the set up of all this (the cave, the bed, is it night or day, how many are we etc.), others are scared i.e. how do I know if this guy out there is actually nice? Maybe he’s going to chop me up as soon as I get out? And pondering whether is a good thing to get out or is it safer to stay in you never know…
Others have actually put their first foot on the floor and wondering “where do I start?” which is where most of us here are at, or so I assume if we are having these kinds of talks. Unless some decide it is not worth their while and get back in bed. Or better, they figure “Oh well, he’ll come and open us all up eventually, let’s wait”…
How is that?
March 2nd, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Very interesting discussion. I’m not at all sure I have much to add here, but I thought I would talk about a dream I had a couple of weeks ago: very simply, in the dream, “I” came to understand that when “I” died, “I” would have to reincarnate as every single other human being that had ever lived or ever would live, one life at a time. “I” was very overwhelmed by how much work “I” had to do.
So… Fatima, your position might make some sense if it were true that every human being is indeed a separate entity. But I’m not sure that’s true. Even metaphorically, it’s true in the way that JP suggests.
I’m no fan of self-indulgence, but it really isn’t up to me to judge others.
March 2nd, 2006 at 11:06 pm
I have found that all lives are valuable. Some lives serve as guides that inspire us to climb higher, to do greater things. Other lives serve as guides to act as a warning of what not to do and both are equally valuable. Also, I’d like to say that just because a person sits on the couch eating Frito Lays watching TV, perhaps they are just moving at a different pace, taking a break, learning, digesting, etc. TV can be very educational. Perhaps the person who sits on the sofa is an example to the criminal mind to just “be”. Just because they sit on the sofa “wasting their lives” in this instance, does not mean, they are forever locked into that position or that they don’t serve a greater purpose to someone, on some level, somewhere. Fatima, get over your self-righteous self. Perhaps, next year they will have a great epiphany and rise from the sofa to change the world. We mustn’t judge other’s pathways in life. Trust in the beautiful intricate web of life that we are all vital and important.
March 3rd, 2006 at 1:51 am
I’d just say this:
Judge not the value and weight of another’s life until you have thoroughly judged yourself, inside and out. Perhaps once you’ve truly weighed yourself, you’ll find that there is no difference between you or the next person, only your experiences; the potential is there in all of us.
March 3rd, 2006 at 7:40 am
Which is all I am hoping for.
Ditto.
March 3rd, 2006 at 8:06 am
Funny how those who most vehemently tell you not to judge others are the fastest ones to call you names. How isn’t that judging me?
I am not any more self-righteous than you are a fluff-bunny with cheap feely-goody spirituality, i.e. we just happen to disagree and that all fine. No need to jump the name calling gun, especially as this discussion comes from another topic that you do not seem to have read.
March 3rd, 2006 at 12:31 pm
i agree with fatima that there’s no need for name calling or telling someone to ‘get over themself.’ i hope i haven’t come across that way– i’m actually really enjoying this discussion.
now, imo, those gandhis (i dunno about mother teresa– she had some issues) are the ones who also turn around and say, “okay, here’s your key, now come along!” because in the end, it doesn’t matter!
you seem concerned with the value of work, which is totally understandable. in my conception, though, hard work is terrible! well, not terrible, but, like, a non-issue. since it all washes out in the end, since we are all one another, if people somehow ‘piggyback’ in based on the work i’ve done, what’s the big deal? or, like, if someone gets ‘it’ without really having worked for it, then where’s the harm to me and to the greater universe? why would i resent having had my experiences, and what, other than my pointless little ego, would resent someone else who had different experiences?
March 3rd, 2006 at 4:22 pm
The other thing to consider too is: just because “we’re all one” or whatever, doesn’t mean that life isn’t hard or that you shouldn’t try to make life better or improve yourself. But I just think you should do it for it’s own reward, not because you believe karma or Jesus or something is gonna smite you if you don’t. There’s enough to worry about in life without adding in the supernatural retribution angle.
March 3rd, 2006 at 4:36 pm
I don’t think I would be so presumptuous as to demand such a sorting.
As a father, I do not sort. I do not have some bad children and some good ones. I would not quantify things enough to say that I love my children equally, but I could never rank them in importance in my life, I love each to the extent of my capacity to love.
My daughter became pregnant at 16. My son wondered why I didn’t punish her, as he had been punished for doing things that resulted in far smaller problems. The reason is this: I do not punish my children (on the rare occasions that I do at all) for the sake of punishment. I punish them to guide them away from trouble, to give them all the advantages in life that I can. Since the trouble was already there for my daughter, the best way for me to help her did not involve making her any more aware of the seriousness of the situation.
Anyway, using the father metaphor, I see no reason to assume that ultimate judgement is a fundimental principle applicable to all ideas of the Transcendant, because it is not even helpful in my experience of fatherhood. Certainly, in my faith tradition we believe God does judge, although I don’t think He loves those who fall short any less - but if I am being open minded enough to not use a specific name, I must be open minded enough to consider the possibility that The Transcendant does not sort people into those who are worthy and those who are not. My faith tradition holds that nobody is worthy, that divine love is a characteristic of God and not earned. Yeah, it means I’m not special and that bugs me. So do natural disasters and mean people.
March 3rd, 2006 at 5:24 pm
>> No need to jump the name calling gun,
I didn’t call you names dear. Names are nouns. “Self-righteous” is an adjective I chose to describe your attitude. You called me a name: Fluff-bunny. Thanks! I rather like it
March 3rd, 2006 at 5:36 pm
@ JP
The problem is that it seems sooooooooo unfair!!
Part of it is the uptight atheist-calvinist education “work hard and you’ll be rewarded”, part of it is the immature “I did well, now gimme my candy” type of mentality, part of is the ego related feeling of “YES!! I did it” i.e. achievement.
Why is ego so looked down upon? What’s wrong with satifying one’s ego from time to time, or more if need be? Isn’t ego a normal part of the human constitution? And most important, why the hell do we get one if all along the way all we are supposed to do is walk all over it?
That’s actually part of a broader discussion that I have with my friends about circumcision: why in the world should we destroy something that was given to us from the start as part of “a normal constitution”? Why? Why was it attached to us by the very being who designed us… And that goes for everything that we repress but is part of human consitution i.e. the whole virginity/abstinence thing, why was libido and sex drive given to us then…?
“Free the ego!!”, egos are being abused nowadays seriously… Let’s give it some air…
And the funniest thing is, if you give it another name, like self-esteem, all the sudden it becomes something to be defended, lifted, increased. Call it ego and everybody start shitting on it…
March 3rd, 2006 at 5:47 pm
@ Error
Would you mind describing what happens to “those who fall short” in your faith? Not just what you think of it, but what the objective paradigm is i.e. the dogma, the rules, you name it.
March 3rd, 2006 at 5:59 pm
Right. So, now that you’ve done it so well, what about actually contributing to the discussion by adding some depth to it… If you can of course…
Like, for example, what about exposing your own system, or answering Tim’s question on what our life’s mision is. I am dying to hear what you have to say. Please expand our horizons.
PS: You may also want to meditate on the difference between the word opinion and attitude. You may even want to share your results with us. Please enlighten us!
March 3rd, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Yeah, some things are unfair. And somethings *seem* unfair but aren’t really. So?
I guess the question is what does “unfair” really mean (to you)? It seems to mean that there is a comparison between oneself and others, and somewhere in that comparison there is the recognition that differences exist.
In my opinion and personal experience, it’s up to you to decide how to react to these differences (if they truly do exist). One way is anger & frustration and jealousy. Another way is acceptance. What’s right and wrong among those? Nothing - they’re different. Again, it’s up to the individual to react or not react.
On the topic of fairness, I wrote something about that in reference to the Christian doctrine of universalism and how Christians seem to get pissed when you say everybody goes to heaven, because they don’t think it’s fair:
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005...12/20/but-but-universalism-isnt-fair/
March 3rd, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Fatima: I’ve already said my piece and don’t feel the need to argue it. I made my contribution to the discussion (see above).
I’ve also already contributed to Tim’s question on what our life’s mission is. I have already revealed my M.O. I don’t feel the need to vehemently defend my opinion or way of operating in the world, as no one wins this argument and this debate will not “save the world.”
March 3rd, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Meditation complete. Results - behind every opinion is an attitude.
March 3rd, 2006 at 11:00 pm
I guess it all makes sense in a system such as Universalism or as JP’s. I can’t agree but if it works for you, hey, power to you.
I do see however how some would not want such religions to take over and go mainstream.
March 4th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
Isn’t it possible that many are looking for meaning within themselves when it isn’t to be found there? Isn’t it possible that the purpose to life is not found “within,” but rather in a transcendent moral authority that exists above and beyone each of us? Isn’t it possible that life isn’t “what you make of it,” but what you do in service to the Creator? There is a God who exists, He is self-existent and self-defining (he doesn’t need us to “define” him…if He did, He wouldn’t be God), He doesn’t dwell in temples built by hands, He is the Lord over all things, He created and knows each of us by name, and desires that we know Him. In service to this God is where we find meaning, purpose, and value. Searching for it elsewhere leads to an empty heart, and an empty, unfulfilled existence.
March 4th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
And in response to the original question: “what is a life worth?” Christ answered that question…even the most “insignificant” life in the eyes of the world was worth His own.
March 4th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
If the Universe on the whole can be said to have no presiding interest in what direction it takes, there is no difference in value between anything that exists. Being is all that matters.
If the Universe, or a controlling intelligence that guides it, can be said to have a presiding interest in what direction it takes, there is still no difference in value between anything that exists. Being and Direction is all that matters.
If you suppose that controlling intelligence does exist, but on a fragmented scale only, it may judge differences in the value of one fragment from another fragment. As it is in itself only a fragment, it cannot influence overtly the totality of the Universe (or itself, or anything).
Now zoom out.
If fragmented intelligence does exist, how can it be proven to itself any more than the existence of a greater controlling intelligence? That is to say, how can intelligence be proven?
Do you accept that a river bed is intelligent because the stones and earth direct the flow, or that the river is intelligent because it can wear stones and shift earth? Is intelligence then nothing more than something that arises from an unintelligent system?
If so, how do you tell the difference?
I’m completely off-topic. Sorry.
The answer is $12k USD if you account for inflation.
March 4th, 2006 at 9:46 pm
All those things are indeed possible.
March 4th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
Fatima, what happens to those who fall short, in my tradition, takes a while to describe. Dante did a better job than I can, and he did it in complex linked verses that are probably worth learning Italian to read in the original form.
However, that’s MY tradition, and if we are talking exclusively about that, we say God or JHWH (Yahweh, for those whose written language includes vowels, Jehovah for those who think Jesus spoke English with a Missisippian accent) or I Am That Am or Elohim. But if we are talking in a general enough sense that “the Universe” is a reasonable alternative term, then I don’t see where judgement is a neccessary attribute. If we are talking about The Universe as observed an a strictly objective manner, then not only doesn’t it judge people, it doesn’t care about them at all.