16 Reader Responses

1. barbarahoney Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 11:34 am

   ..dude…….thank you,what a great way to start the day………..what was really unusual was to see people dressed SO conservatively behaving like that…….
   all that was missing were the snakes…….or maybe the snakes were down inside their clothing………..

2. Ant Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 11:44 am

   Wow. scary! Rapture or Psychotic Break?! I grew up with some people who were really into going to things like that where they said people would go into manic sobs of happiness, or laughter, or start speaking in tongues. I was actually invited to a big retreat thing that involved a few of those gatherings. And when I gave them weird looks they used to say “Oh, but it’s so amazing. I think you’d really appreciate it.” And I usually said “Um, no. That’s really f*cking scary.” And then they’d get mad and disappointed in me.

   I dunno, I’ve seen similar things go on in hypnosis, trances, magic shows, and perhaps cults. So, I’m judging them a little bit, and I don’t think I’ll ever understand that level of… creepiness and how it relates to following Jesus. I’m not really sure if I remember Jesus involved in inducing anything like that… Just spooky; so I’m sorry if I offend anyone by saying that.

3. Rev Max Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 11:44 am

   The purpose of organized religion is not to provide people with an experience of the sacred, its to protect them from experiencing the sacred - the video you post here is the exception taht proves the rule

   Kenneth Hagin & Copeland are “word of faith” preachers they have some very unusual (heretical) idea, e.g., jesus was tortured and raped in hell for 3 days by satan

   Do a google search on “holy laughter” in general - its not only hagin and copeland but many many pentacostal churches are into this - its like some sort of shamanic atavism, people growl and roar like lions, get “holy erections,” walk on all four like dogs

   Also there is an evangelical movement (very controversial) called the “Toronto Blessing”, many MANY websites on the internet dedicated to proving that the “toronto blessing” is actually the “kundalini serpent,” i.e., a satanic deception which opens the tird eye so that christians can see in to “the demonic spiritual world,” etc.

   great stuff!

4. Greg Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 11:45 am

   wow, that was really creepy.

   I wonder though, are they really “losing control” to the spirit, or if it’s just a form of hysteria? A true test would be wether or not the lost all body function. Imagine the mess that would make.

   Freaky

5. Rev Max Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 11:48 am

   http://www.rapidnet.com/%7Ejbeard/bdm/exposes/copeland/general.htm

   Other Quotes Illustrating Kenneth Copeland’s Heretical Teachings

   That Adam was God manifest in the flesh.“God’s reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself, and in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. … Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. … Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh.” (Following the Faith of Abraham I, 1989 audiotape, #01-3001, side 1)

   God is the greatest failure in the Universe.“I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is. … The biggest one is God. … I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the Fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least—that’s a big loss, man … Now, the reason you don’t think of God as a failure is He never said He’s a failure. And you’re not a failure till you say you’re one.” (Praise-a-Thon program on TBN [April 1988] )

   God lives on a mother planet“Heaven has a north and a south and an east and a west. Consequently, it must be a planet.” (Spirit, Soul and Body I, 1985 audiotape #01-0601, side 1)

   “You don’t think earth was first, do you? Huh? Well, you don’t think that God made man in His image, and then made earth in some other image? There is not anything under this whole sun that’s new. Are you hearing what I’m saying? This is all a copy. It’s a copy of home. It’s a copy of the Mother Planet. Where God lives, He made a little one just like His and put us on it.” (Following the Faith of Abraham I, 1989 audiotape, #01-3001, side 1)

   The death of Jesus on the Cross did not pay the price for sins.
   “It wasn’t the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin … anybody could do that.” (What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost)

   “Every prophet that walked the face of the earth under the Abrahamic covenant could have paid the price if it were a physical death only” “When He said ‘It is finished’ on that cross, He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun; there were still three days and three nights to be gone through.” “[Jesus] accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own Spirit, and at the moment that He did so, He cried ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’.” “He [Jesus] was down in that pit and there he suffered the punishment for three horrible days and nights for Adam’s treason … There is a new birth takes place in the very depths of the earth, when the command of God says ‘That’s enough, loose him and let him go’.” (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne)

   Jesus was raped by homosexual Roman soldiers everyway possible.
   “Let me tell you something folks. Anybody in here that’s ever been sexually abused, listen to me right now. Listen to me very carefully. The Bible’s very careful about the way it says these things. But down there in that dungeon, Romans, ungodly men, ungodly men, put Him (Jesus) to every kind of abuse that you can think of. There is no sin that Jesus didn’t bare. There is no thing, there is no such thing as a sexual abuse on somebody that Jesus doesn’t know firsthand what it’s all about. He’s been where you are. I don’t care what you’ve been through, Jesus has been through it. And everything’s done to him that we couldn’t even speak of.” (The Resurrection Truth)

   God and Adam are the same size.
   “God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words. These words struck Adam’s body in the face. His body and God’s were exactly the same size.” (Holy Bible, Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition 1991, p. 45)

   God is “a being that is very uncanny the way He’s very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6’-2”, 6’-3”, that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, [and] has a [hand] span of nine inches across.” (Spirit, Soul and Body I, 1985, audiotape #01-0601, side 1)

   “[Adam] was the copy, looked just like [God]. If you stood Adam upside God, they look just exactly alike. If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and sound exactly alike.” (Authority of the Believer IV, 1987, audiotape #01-0304, side 1)

   God has no right to the earth at all; He needs an invitation.
   “God had no avenue of lasting faith or moving in the earth. He had to have covenant with somebody. … He had to be invited in, in other words, or He couldn’t come. God is on the outside looking in. In order to have any say so in the earth, He’s going to have to be in agreement with a man here.” (God’s Covenants With Man II, 1985, audiotape #01-4404, side 1)

   The deification of Satan.
   Satan is deified as the God this world and is positioned with so much power that he could manage to “turn the light off in God.”

   Ownership of the earth is Satan’s.“God’s on the outside looking in. He doesn’t have any legal entree into the earth. The thing don’t belong to Him. You see how sassy the Devil was in the presence of God in the book of Job? God said, ‘Where have you been?’ Wasn’t any of God’s business. He [Satan] didn’t even have to answer if he didn’t want to … God didn’t argue with him a bit! You see, this is the position that God’s been in … Might say, ‘Well, if God’s running things He’s doing a lousy job of it.’ He hadn’t been running ’em, except when He’s just got, you know, a little bit of a chance.” (Image of God in You III, 1989, audiotape #01-1403, side 1)

   “Here’s where we’re gonna depart from ordinary church: Now, you see, God is injecting His Word into the earth to produce this Jesus—these faith-filled words that framed the image that’s in Him … He can’t just walk onto the earth and say, ‘Let it be!’ because He doesn’t have the right. He had to sneak it in here around the god of this world that was blockin’ every way that he possibly could.” (The Image of God in You III, 1989, audiotape #01-1403, side 2)

   “The Bible says that God gave this earth to the sons of men … and when [Adam] turned and gave that dominion to Satan, look where it left God. If left Him on the outside looking in … He had no legal right to do anything about it, did He? … He had injected Himself illegally into the earth—what Satan had intended for Him to do was to fall for it—pull off an illegal act and turn the light off in God, and subordinate God to himself … He intended to get God into such a trap that He couldn’t get out.” (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017)

   “Adam committed high treason; and at that point, all the dominion and authority God had given to him was handed over to Satan. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in … After Adam’s fall, God found Himself in a peculiar position …God needed an avenue back into the earth …God laid out His proposition and Abram accepted it. It gave God access to the earth and gave man access to God … Technically, if God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself.” (Our Covenant with God, 1987, pp. 8-11)

   Jesus Christ communicates directly with Copeland.
   “Don’t be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of Me, should they not speak that way of you? The more you get to be like Me, the more they’re going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn’t claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah.” (“Take Time to Pray,” Believer’s Voice of, February 1987, p. 9)

   “The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, ‘Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.’ He said, ‘Think this way—a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.’ And I threw my Bible down … like that. I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.’ He said, ‘You are the very image, the very copy of that one.’ I said, ‘Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could’ve done the same thing, ‘cause you’re a reborn man too.” (Substitution and Identification, 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2)

   Atonement Atrocities.
   Copeland says that Jesus became a sign of Satan when He was hanging on the cross: “The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, ‘My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?’ You don’t know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, ‘Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there—the sign of Satan? Why didn’t you put a lamb on that pole?’ And the Lord said, ‘Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.’ He said, ‘I accepted, in My own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off.’” (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

   “When Jesus cried, ‘It is finished!’ He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. … Jesus’ death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption.” (“Jesus—Our Lord of Glory,” Believer’s Voice of Victory, April 1982, p. 3)

   Jesus’ “rebirth” in hell.
   “[I]n hell He [Jesus] suffered for you and for me. The Bible says hell was made for Satan and his angles. It was not made for men. Satan was holding the Son of God there illegally … The trap was set for Satan and Jesus was the bait.” (Walking in the Realm of the Miraculous, 1979, p. 77)

   Satan blew it on a technicality, according to Faith theology, because Satan had dragged Jesus into hell illegally. As Copeland puts it, “The Devil forgot to take into consideration that Jesus hadn’t sinned Himself but, rather, had merely become sin as a result of the sin of others.” (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

   “… [t]hat Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil had never seen before. He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles … Jesus was born again—the first-born from the dead the Word calls Him—and He whipped the devil in his own backyard. He took everything he had away from him. He took his keys and his authority away from him.” (“The Price of it All,” Believer’s Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4)

6. Rev Max Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 11:49 am

   The Laughing Revival
   “The so-called “Toronto Blessing” or the “Laughing Revival,” which is currently tickling the ears of many thrill seeking Christians, is one of the newest of a series of false signs and wonders deceiving many who are purportedly seeking God.”
   
   The Toronto Curse: It isn’t Funny
   “This alleged blessing which is sweeping across America and Europe includes manifestations of laughing, crying, shaking, falling, screaming, shrieking, snorting, braying, roaring, clucking, barking, oinking, ad nauseam.”
   
   Holy Laughter: Rodney Howard-Browne and the Toronto Blessing
   “Are we to assume that those who bark like a dog are heralding the triumph of Christ in some other form? Dogs are unclean animals (as are lions). Can we imagine Jesus or any of the apostles barking like dogs or roaring like lions?”

7. Ant Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 11:51 am

   And I recognize the one guy in the audience (around 5:27ish) as being this preacher guy that has a show on the one popular Christian network. His reaction was rather incongruous with the rest of the audience, but perhaps that’s what he’s like when he’s drunk.

8. Ronin Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 1:04 pm

   Dude, that was great…more magick there than half the Thelemic rituals I’ve been to…thats an excellent example of what a Dionysian gnosis looks like…I’ve seen yogi’s, followers of Shiva (Hindu Dionysis), having the exact same experience…Yes, its crazy as shit, but then again, so is the sacred and the divine…

   Love your comments Rev- you’re dead on- I’ve always been fascinated with the Word of Faith movement…Its definitely Christianity, yet it uses magickal techniques in (not-so-hidden) disguise…Note the explosion of the Word of Faith movement in the last 20-30 yrs…Joel Osteen (largest church in America), Benny Hinn (I’ll knock the devil upside his head), Oral Roberts (I saw a 900 foot Jesus), etc…they might be nuts, but they got their magick down…

   Ant, that “one guy” is Kenneth Copeland…

   BTW, one other preacher that I’m 95% sure is an adept-in-disguise, and a pretty good one, is Robert Tilton…yea the money guy…theres a lot of magick going on with that cat…he also seems to have ties to the voudoun community in Texas and across the southeast (notice how his new programs are geared towards African-Americans)…

   if you can stomach the Xtian style, then theres definitely something to be learned from these preachers…

   Ronin

9. jp Says:
   August 1st, 2006 at 3:55 pm

   yeah, i think this video is way awesome. these people are experiencing something real (or they’re undergoing some serious mass hypnosis). of course, it’s hard to tell what’s really going on here without knowing the set & setting– s’like seeing a tiny segment of a voudoun priestess possessed by a loa & basing an assessment on that.

   i love this stuff. after all, the original gnostics were the first snake-handlers. more power to them.

10. alistair Says:
    August 1st, 2006 at 11:42 pm

    i found myself laughing with them. if that joy can authentically be taken into thier daily world then they can only be enriched by it. i found it remarkable how they were experiencing a lot of what i remember from laughing in class when the teacher was pissed. it would spur us on to more laughter, and if we were really lucky then the teacher would laugh to.
    authentic joy is just that.
    i say in my work that the first time you smile in the mirror at yourself you may feel slightly uncomfortable………but the next smile wil be real.

11. Maximon Says:
    August 2nd, 2006 at 1:10 am

    Robert Tiltion…looked him up.

    uhhh, yeah. crazy shyt
    http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/televangelists/robert-tilton/

12. prunes Says:
    August 2nd, 2006 at 11:15 am

    The purpose of organized religion is not to provide people with an experience of the sacred, its to protect them from experiencing the sacred - the video you post here is the exception taht proves the rule

    Analogously to how words and concrete concepts are formed from the trans-formal prior substance (like in Tim’s next post), ‘religions’ are the outward form of the eternal impulse at their core. The error comes from mistaking the form for the substance, whence ‘bible literalists’.

    See Frithjof Schuon’s “The Transcendent Unity of Religion” for an in-depth examination of this idea.

13. Tim Boucher Says:
    August 2nd, 2006 at 1:40 pm

    Yeah man, I totally get that accidents/substance concept now. It’s a really hard one to grasp on an intellectual level. You have to experience it directly somehow

14. Religion As A Shield - Pop Occulture Blog Says:
    August 2nd, 2006 at 2:33 pm

    […] In the comments to a recent post, Rev Max wrote: The purpose of organized religion is not to provide people with an experience of the sacred, its to protect them from experiencing the sacred […]

15. Kinch Says:
    August 2nd, 2006 at 6:38 pm

    Those guys party harder than ozzfest. Somebody must have put some LSD in the Holy Water.

16. Victim Says:
    August 4th, 2006 at 7:52 am

    Lascivious!!! I don’t trust this people. Wicked.