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	<title>Comments on: There Are No Absolutes</title>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: hf</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19301</link>
		<dc:creator>hf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 23:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19301</guid>
		<description>Again you've conflated science with some particular ideal that involves science. &lt;a href="http://www.galileolibrary.com/history/history_page_147.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;Science&lt;/a&gt; does not concern itself with progress. It doesn't concern itself with anything except the hypotheses people submit to it for testing. As for individual scientists, they pursue various individual goals. Many prefer some version of political progress or change that works directly against government, with its desire for stasis and self-preservation.

As for your closing questions, I think I tried to address them &lt;a&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. I strongly doubt you have a better answer. And religion &lt;a&gt;clearly does not have a better answer&lt;/a&gt;, whatever Mohler may think.

Incidentally, if you think scientific thought can provide no resistance to the rulers, you may want to remind yourself &lt;a href="http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/000493.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;how rulers think back in the real world&lt;/a&gt;. They tend to insist on unscientific claims, because otherwise their instincts would tell them not to kill so many people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again you&#8217;ve conflated science with some particular ideal that involves science. <a href="http://www.galileolibrary.com/history/history_page_147.htm" rel="nofollow">Science</a> does not concern itself with progress. It doesn&#8217;t concern itself with anything except the hypotheses people submit to it for testing. As for individual scientists, they pursue various individual goals. Many prefer some version of political progress or change that works directly against government, with its desire for stasis and self-preservation.</p>
<p>As for your closing questions, I think I tried to address them <a>here</a>. I strongly doubt you have a better answer. And religion <a>clearly does not have a better answer</a>, whatever Mohler may think.</p>
<p>Incidentally, if you think scientific thought can provide no resistance to the rulers, you may want to remind yourself <a href="http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/000493.html" rel="nofollow">how rulers think back in the real world</a>. They tend to insist on unscientific claims, because otherwise their instincts would tell them not to kill so many people.</p>
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		<title>By: Yves</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19266</link>
		<dc:creator>Yves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19266</guid>
		<description>What has been said above about Christian fundamentalism applies even more, I think, to Muslim fundamentalism, or just plain ordinary Islam. I don't speak as a Muslim myself, but I see an extraordinary spectrum in both religions which ranges from the gentle and admirable instinct to live in love and peace, despite corrupted outside influences, to a super-amibitious, super-corrupted desire to reshape the world whether it wills or no.

I understand less about fundamentalist Christianity, because it is almost underground as a force in this secular country (England). But I know that Islam has shifted over the centuries from one of the most liberal, tolerant and inclusive religions, in which learning and the arts flourished, into something which in parts has now sharpened to an agressive point. I ask myself what has changed and find two things: (1) poverty &#38; oppression - I'm counting them as one thing - and (2) revulsion at the ugly power of "the West" - the dominance, the usury, the female-flesh-flaunting, the alcohol &#38; drugs, the lack of respect for others' culture etc etc.

The process towards activism parallels closely the animal rights activists. 

Things which are repellent to the devout Muslim are generally things to which the Western citizen has become inured through constant bombardment of propaganda. If the devout young Muslim were not tempted by these things he would not be so motivated to destroy them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What has been said above about Christian fundamentalism applies even more, I think, to Muslim fundamentalism, or just plain ordinary Islam. I don&#8217;t speak as a Muslim myself, but I see an extraordinary spectrum in both religions which ranges from the gentle and admirable instinct to live in love and peace, despite corrupted outside influences, to a super-amibitious, super-corrupted desire to reshape the world whether it wills or no.</p>
<p>I understand less about fundamentalist Christianity, because it is almost underground as a force in this secular country (England). But I know that Islam has shifted over the centuries from one of the most liberal, tolerant and inclusive religions, in which learning and the arts flourished, into something which in parts has now sharpened to an agressive point. I ask myself what has changed and find two things: (1) poverty &amp; oppression - I&#8217;m counting them as one thing - and (2) revulsion at the ugly power of &#8220;the West&#8221; - the dominance, the usury, the female-flesh-flaunting, the alcohol &amp; drugs, the lack of respect for others&#8217; culture etc etc.</p>
<p>The process towards activism parallels closely the animal rights activists. </p>
<p>Things which are repellent to the devout Muslim are generally things to which the Western citizen has become inured through constant bombardment of propaganda. If the devout young Muslim were not tempted by these things he would not be so motivated to destroy them.</p>
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		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19264</link>
		<dc:creator>alistair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 04:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19264</guid>
		<description>prunes, that`s bang on baby...........but dogmatists can`t stand not needing rules about rules, ad infinitum. it`s how they keep themselves warm at night.........and of course perpetuate the divisiveness.
watching the meaning of life by monty python a few times brings it all into focus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>prunes, that`s bang on baby&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..but dogmatists can`t stand not needing rules about rules, ad infinitum. it`s how they keep themselves warm at night&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;and of course perpetuate the divisiveness.<br />
watching the meaning of life by monty python a few times brings it all into focus.</p>
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		<title>By: prunes</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19251</link>
		<dc:creator>prunes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19251</guid>
		<description>There is only one absolute, the Absolute One, the alpha and omega, which cannot be put into any words or pictures. The modern fundamentalist Christian movement is a reaction against the severing of the connection to the Absolute by scientism, but fundies only mimic the empty forms of religion, they are just as unconnected to the vertical dimension as the scientists.

This can be seen in the development of Creationism (utterly modern) as a reaction to evolutionism. If one wonders what sort of paradigm could be an alternative to these two conflicting narratives, this just shows how deeply the disconnect runs. But, for instance, one could take very seriously the "intelligent falling" idea, that G-D intervenes in every single thing that has ever happened; this is actually much closer to the traditional conception of Creation than creationist lies.

When the alchemists talk about Nature with a big 'N', they are referring to the action of the one thing. Nature is G-D's mode of action. Nature moves ALL things, including our own brains which formulate these theories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is only one absolute, the Absolute One, the alpha and omega, which cannot be put into any words or pictures. The modern fundamentalist Christian movement is a reaction against the severing of the connection to the Absolute by scientism, but fundies only mimic the empty forms of religion, they are just as unconnected to the vertical dimension as the scientists.</p>
<p>This can be seen in the development of Creationism (utterly modern) as a reaction to evolutionism. If one wonders what sort of paradigm could be an alternative to these two conflicting narratives, this just shows how deeply the disconnect runs. But, for instance, one could take very seriously the &#8220;intelligent falling&#8221; idea, that G-D intervenes in every single thing that has ever happened; this is actually much closer to the traditional conception of Creation than creationist lies.</p>
<p>When the alchemists talk about Nature with a big &#8216;N&#8217;, they are referring to the action of the one thing. Nature is G-D&#8217;s mode of action. Nature moves ALL things, including our own brains which formulate these theories.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19240</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19240</guid>
		<description>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_ethics

&lt;blockquote&gt;Situational ethics (also known as Situationism) refers to a particular view of ethics that states: the morality of an act is a function of the state of the system at the time it is performed. [...] Moral relativism is an entirely different theory in which there is no universal moral truth, that there are only beliefs, perspectives, ethno-centric values, none more valid than another. Situational ethics finds the foundation of moral truth in agape, it is thus not moral relativism.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not sure what I think about this exactly... but it's something I have been considering without knowing specifically what to call it, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_ethics" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_ethics'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_ethics</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Situational ethics (also known as Situationism) refers to a particular view of ethics that states: the morality of an act is a function of the state of the system at the time it is performed. [...] Moral relativism is an entirely different theory in which there is no universal moral truth, that there are only beliefs, perspectives, ethno-centric values, none more valid than another. Situational ethics finds the foundation of moral truth in agape, it is thus not moral relativism.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not sure what I think about this exactly&#8230; but it&#8217;s something I have been considering without knowing specifically what to call it, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19239</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19239</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Do you distinguish moral relativism from situational ethics?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not sure what you mean by that... Do you?

&lt;blockquote&gt;The ironic thing is that those Christian fundamentalists who you agree with on this probably believe that moral relativism comes from rebellion against Empire. This seems to be at the root of a lot of conservative thought â€” rebelling against the Empire throws you into a moral-relativist pit&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I've never really seen that point made anywhere... But I do think that how Fundamentalists see themselves and the world has been cleverly hijacked and modified out of its true ideological core.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Do you distinguish moral relativism from situational ethics?</p></blockquote>
<p>Not sure what you mean by that&#8230; Do you?</p>
<blockquote><p>The ironic thing is that those Christian fundamentalists who you agree with on this probably believe that moral relativism comes from rebellion against Empire. This seems to be at the root of a lot of conservative thought â€” rebelling against the Empire throws you into a moral-relativist pit</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve never really seen that point made anywhere&#8230; But I do think that how Fundamentalists see themselves and the world has been cleverly hijacked and modified out of its true ideological core.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Hart</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19238</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Hart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19238</guid>
		<description>I have to add: a Christian fundamentalist might think of him- or herself as being in rebellion against an evil Empire that is morally relativist, but the fundamentalist's idea of the evil relativist Empire is probably a bit different from the technocracy that you oppose. 

Isn't it funny how people so often think of the status quo as being ideologically the opposite of whatever they themselves believe ideologically? So many of us believe in the "evil Empire", but liberal think it is conservative and conservatives think it is liberal. Weird, huh? Of course, the people whom all the rebels need to watch out for are those who believe the status quo does agree with them ideologically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to add: a Christian fundamentalist might think of him- or herself as being in rebellion against an evil Empire that is morally relativist, but the fundamentalist&#8217;s idea of the evil relativist Empire is probably a bit different from the technocracy that you oppose. </p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it funny how people so often think of the status quo as being ideologically the opposite of whatever they themselves believe ideologically? So many of us believe in the &#8220;evil Empire&#8221;, but liberal think it is conservative and conservatives think it is liberal. Weird, huh? Of course, the people whom all the rebels need to watch out for are those who believe the status quo does agree with them ideologically.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Hart</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19237</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Hart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19237</guid>
		<description>Very interesting. The ironic thing is that those Christian fundamentalists who you agree with on this probably believe that moral relativism comes from rebellion against Empire. This seems to be at the root of a lot of conservative thought -- rebelling against the Empire throws you into a moral-relativist pit -- and it is pretty much the opposite, in a way, of what you're saying -- that the Empire itself endorses moral relativism. 

Of course, this just brings up the distinction between a static, conservative "status quo" and an expansionary, modernist Empire (some commentators have claimed capitalism is so successful as a status quo because it actually can change to keep from dying). 

Also, I have a question: Do you distinguish moral relativism from situational ethics?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting. The ironic thing is that those Christian fundamentalists who you agree with on this probably believe that moral relativism comes from rebellion against Empire. This seems to be at the root of a lot of conservative thought &#8212; rebelling against the Empire throws you into a moral-relativist pit &#8212; and it is pretty much the opposite, in a way, of what you&#8217;re saying &#8212; that the Empire itself endorses moral relativism. </p>
<p>Of course, this just brings up the distinction between a static, conservative &#8220;status quo&#8221; and an expansionary, modernist Empire (some commentators have claimed capitalism is so successful as a status quo because it actually can change to keep from dying). </p>
<p>Also, I have a question: Do you distinguish moral relativism from situational ethics?</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19235</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 03:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19235</guid>
		<description>So far this is really awesome and comes to some of the same conclusions as I have come to here:

&lt;a href="http://ideant.typepad.com/ideant/2006/06/technology_with.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Technology Without Ends: A Critique of Technocracy as a Threat to Being&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So far this is really awesome and comes to some of the same conclusions as I have come to here:</p>
<p><a href="http://ideant.typepad.com/ideant/2006/06/technology_with.html" rel="nofollow">Technology Without Ends: A Critique of Technocracy as a Threat to Being</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/20/there-are-no-absolutes/comment-page-1/#comment-19230</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/19/there-are-no-absolutes/#comment-19230</guid>
		<description>I meant to also point out that where the author I quoted above suggests that moral absolutism can lead to totalitarianism, my argument is that opposite, moral relativism (or "realism" in his language) can and will do the same thing. Maybe the problem in this way of thinking is suggesting that either sense of morality "leads to" or causes totalitarianism. It may simply be that these things cluster together as part of a greater "memeplex" or that there is no correlation at all...

This is also a really good quote from Ran Prieur on the subject of moral relativism from a while back:

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/22/moral-relativism/

See also this which touches on some similar themes

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/07/28/the-freedom-of-materialism/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant to also point out that where the author I quoted above suggests that moral absolutism can lead to totalitarianism, my argument is that opposite, moral relativism (or &#8220;realism&#8221; in his language) can and will do the same thing. Maybe the problem in this way of thinking is suggesting that either sense of morality &#8220;leads to&#8221; or causes totalitarianism. It may simply be that these things cluster together as part of a greater &#8220;memeplex&#8221; or that there is no correlation at all&#8230;</p>
<p>This is also a really good quote from Ran Prieur on the subject of moral relativism from a while back:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/22/moral-relativism/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/22/moral-relativism/'>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/22/moral-relativism/</a></p>
<p>See also this which touches on some similar themes</p>
<p><a href="http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/07/28/the-freedom-of-materialism/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/07/28/the-freedom-of-materialism/'>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/07/28/the-freedom-of-materialism/</a></p>
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