Comments on: Spies Vs. Cops

By: mandi

mandi — Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:31:09 +0000

I would also disagree with the “spy as free thinker” theory. Cops and Spies are both concerned with maintaining the status quo– the only difference between the two is that cops are not allowed to break the rules, whereas spies operate on a system that assumes you have to bend and/or break the rules in order to keep the larger system of rules (society) in place. As soon as that spy becomes a ‘free thinker,’ that is working without regard to the ideology of the society that sanctioned him/her, the spy is no longer called a spy; the spy is a terrorist.

By: Brekin

Brekin — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:58:56 +0000

Two good books that deal with “The Spy or Secret Agent of History” phenomenon in politics and culture are Garry Wills The Kennedy Imprisionment and Hobermans The Dream Life. The allure for intelligence agents and guerilla tactics it’s argued caused the Kennedy slide into The Bay of Pigs and then Vietnam. James Bond helped legitamize such “dirty tricks” to the public. Until the mood changed briefly with the end results and Nixon was cruxified for normal operating procedures by people who did similiar things everyday.

By: skip sievert

skip sievert — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 18:39:06 +0000

Patrick McGoohan turned down the James Bond role after reading the script. He joked about it for years, and always considered it an asinine set of movies. He went on to make one of the perhaps greatest dramatic series that has ever been made, The Prisoner.
One of the main reasons that he turned down the James Bond role was that he thought the mindless violence in it over fake cultural value stuff was not intelligent.

His series holds up rather well for the most part today. The questions that he raises are fundamental questions of the role and meaning of the individual and society.

By: gerry

gerry — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 12:35:05 +0000

I would propose that it is the spymasters who are in control of almost all levels of law enforcement, whether the cops know it or not.

By: Tim Boucher

Tim Boucher — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 04:43:22 +0000

Holy shit, Brekin! You just rocked my world. Great comments, especially this:

The Spy role I think is very tempting, but I think what it signifies is absence of responsibility and accountability.

That is precisely why its so tempting, the “license to kill” aspect you mentioned. Good stuff. I need to process this more

By: brekin

brekin — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 04:32:11 +0000

I would have to disagree about spies bieng free thinkers, immune to indoctrination, etc, Most spies are hired guns, working for the state, I imagine the majority of CIA operatives believe the party line or they wouldn’t put themselves in harms way. Inside spies, moles who give secrets to the enemy have just traded one social indoctrination for another.

By: casemeau

casemeau — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 04:14:10 +0000

Spies are free thinkers who have broken free of social indoctrination against free thinking, and thus become creative people with clear consciences. Cops are free thinkers who have not broken free of social indoctrination against free thinking, and thus become violent people with guilty consciences.

By: Brekin

Brekin — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:54:14 +0000

The Spy role I think is very tempting, but I think what it signifies is absence of responsibility and accountability. When someone works outside of societies rules and conventions they are actually that, outside society, all the while enjoying and benefitting from societies contracts and norms. It would be great if someone did this for the greater good instead of a minorities interests, but even if they did, or tried, they are going around the democratic process, not even indulging the open society at all.
A more ideal society I think would be one where the members are more honest, accountable, responsible, open not less. A spy is really just a sanctioned crook, part of James Bond’s appeal is that he has a “Licensce to Kill” and goes outside the law to ultimately save the foundation of the law by taking on false roles. He’s not a citizen he’s something more, a hidden controller.
I’m just blathering but to sum up, I had a boss once who was very unreliable, dishonest, basicaly sneaky, we got stuck together in boston the week of 9/11 for a conference and probably due to the heightened circumstances he let his guard down and told me in a rare unguarded moment that his childhood dream was to be a spy. Suddenly it was clear, I think he wanted to be something that would sanction his anti-social tendencies that he barely could keep contained on a day to day basis.The spy is the ultimate anti-hero, by doing bad he is really doing good, or is he?

By: unthinkable

unthinkable — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:46:02 +0000

This is a very interesting angle. It’s like V for Vendetta meets Syriana.

By: alistair

alistair — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:08:23 +0000

broke and in the gutter? no………..you guys are choosing the wrong masks. accepting the wearing of masks is the first step to happiness. delight in the playing of a part in a play. do it to the best of your abilities. who knows, maybe you`ll win an oscar.

By: Tim Boucher

Tim Boucher — Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:45:08 +0000

Spies always end up broke and in the gutter.

seems like that would bear out for most of us as well!

By: skip sievert

skip sievert — Tue, 19 Sep 2006 23:12:52 +0000

Spies always end up broke and in the gutter. Just ask Patrick McGoohan. His prisoner series was the ultimate illustration .

By: J

Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:31:56 +0000

How often do any of us here have to hide our true interests and thoughts from those around us because of the trouble we know it would cause?

Amen to that. I feel like this on a daily basis, and it certainly takes its toll. I feel as though this has to do with the lockdown on language that we see in our culture…so many taboo issues and ideas that are unwelcome. That’s why I think the “spy” metaphor here is a good one…it becomes necessary to don a “mask” of sorts, in order to function and fit in. Behind that mask, however, I often feel as though I’m taking bits and pieces from around me, trying to make sense of it within a larger context.

By: Tim Boucher

Tim Boucher — Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:40:49 +0000

Their souls were darkened by it.

Are not ours as well? How often do any of us here have to hide our true interests and thoughts from those around us because of the trouble we know it would cause?

By: jil

jil — Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:39:25 +0000

Met a guy who does ’spook work’ as he called it and dated a girl years ago who was an undercover cop. Both were deeply disturbed by the challenge of pretending to be another person on a regular basis. Their souls were darkened by it.