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Respecting The Ancestors
I recently set up an ancestor altar in my bedroom. More technically, it is a mesa blanca which I set up according to the instructions of the Santero who gave me a reading earlier this summer. It features a small table with a white cloth draped over it, an odd-number of glasses of water in a V-formation, a photo of one set of my grandparents, a candle and some objects belonging to my grandfather.
I honed in on him specifically because shortly after his death, I had numerous dreams about him (and my grandmother who I never met) in which he was conveying information through me to other members of the family. I am no expert in Santeria, spiritism or anything similar, but I see this altar as being sort of a tuning device, a radio for me to send and receive transmissions to the other side. After I set it up, I prayed and asked for a response to know that the signal had been received. That night I got no response, but the next morning, I dreamt that I and all my cousins were gathered together in my grandfather’s home and we were filled with joy. Signal received. Reading you loud and clear…
So do spirits exist? Do the dead walk and watch over us? Yes. Absolutely. This is not an intellectual position or a statement of belief. This is not a wish-fulfillment fantasy. They are really there. You can see them (under the right circumstances) and they can see you. More importantly though, they hear your calls and they respond. Try it out for yourself if you don’t believe me. But bear in mind that belief has little to do with reality.
It has been a struggle for me to deconstruct my beliefs which kept me cynical or skeptical of communicating with spirits. It’s been a long road and don’t expect yourself to change over night. But give it a whirl and you might be surprised.
Operating from this platform of respecting and literally (not figuratively, not metaphorically, not intellectually, but actually) communicating with those who came before me has made me see the world very differently. I now know I can ask for help and receive it. I can ask for wisdom, patience and courage and have it inspired in my heart if I am pure and sincere. What do our ancestors want us to do? If you want to know, just ask them and listen. But remember they too are (or were) only people, with the same struggles and failings as you or I.
I have been thinking a lot about primitivism from this perspective as well, since we’ve been talking about it so much here lately. What would my grandfather think about the Collapse of Civilization? What would his grandfather have thought about it, and his and his? If we could line all our ancestors up in a room and ask them, what do you think they would say? I have been listening with my heart, and though I’ve received no unequivocal signs, I have heard whispers of Don’t give up! echo through the corridors of the past. What do your parents want for you? What did their parents want for them and on and on? They wanted their children to have a good life. They worked hard to make it possible. Maybe they screwed up sometimes, but we all do. It strikes me that to throw all that aside, all their hard work, love and good intentions out of rebellion and frustration is to do a great disservice to the people who brought us into this world. Saying that you’re prepared to throw everything aside that they worked for is to heap dishonor on your ancestors and what they stood for - and in so doing, your own self.
They do want you to have a good life, though. They do want you to make the most of your time in this world. So you have to honestly and thoroughly ask yourself: “How do I do that?” Do you do it by opting out or by jumping into the fray, whatever that may be? It’s temping to go macro and say, “Well, by returning to tribalism and hunter-gathering I am returning to the ways of my ancestors.” Really? Which ones? How far back do you have to go to find them? 10,000 years? 2 million years? What were these peoples’ names? What did they look like? What did they care about? You can and should ask them, I think. You can and should find out. They’re still milling around somewhere to help us out. But they are so far away from us in time that it’s difficult to perceive them as anything but an abstraction, as a speculative description from an anthropology text book. But most of us are lucky enough to know or have known our parents and some of us our grandparents, what they looked like, how they acted, how they must have felt about things. We can reach back an infinite distance into the past and wish to return to that Edenic paradise, but it’s only a paradise because it’s not real, and we can’t feel firsthand the struggles of it. But we can those of our own lives - quite keenly - and this is why our world now seems so torturously difficult to make it through.
The good news is, though, that we have help. We’ve never been alone and never will be. This is not an intellectual position, a hopeful fantasy, or a nice story to placate ourselves with. This is real life. This is the reality of death and we must reach towards it to find our place here in life. So I would offer the suggestion that maybe asking your ancestors from 100,000 for help will be valuable in some way, but what do they know about you, or about your life? If we want to respect the past and where we came from and be true to the spirit of humanity which birthed us, the answer is as close as a phone call away. The cost though is that your dismantle your beliefs and prejudices (no matter how well formed intellectually they may be) so that you’re able to authentically listen and respond in kind.
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September 24th, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Well, this site has definately helped me overcome my material doubts. I am so grateful for that. (In fact when I get a credit card I will show my gratitude!) I always believed in elves and faeries, but I always thought the idea of a spirit was egotistical invention because of our fear of death.
But that interview you did with Rev Max last year removed the doubt that accumulated on the left side of my brain and I felt acess to the right side and in contact with the amazing faculty of intuition. Intuition is magic! It opened me up to the vertical world. Before I was bordering on the horizontal/existential/ feeling trapped- but now there is no doubt of the spirit.
I am of Italian descent from Calabria- ancestors were a lot of criminals and had possible ties to the Ndrangheta. I am really not sure if I would really want to be in contact with them. Although, when I die I don’t want to be roughed up in the bardo state. Hopefully, I can count on Jesus or Krishnamurti or maybe some cool Taoists.
September 24th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
Interesting post, a good counter to the line in your last one that “history won’t save us”. There’s obviously something to that now-focus, but in some sense it is also reflective of (hyper)modern civilization - detached from history, blind to the long-term future, fixated on immediate gratification. (I know this wasn’t the sense you meant it in, but there is some relationship there.)
There’s a see-saw aspect to modern culture. On the one hand it’s easy to see how it aims to shed the past, fixate on novelty, forge a linear line of progress up, up and away. On the other hand, this very impulse creates a kind of counteractive fixation on the past - nostalgia for “simpler times”, obsession with authenticity, etc. It’s devilishly hard to find a personal balance between these oscillations!
But I do think that this form of ancestral spiritual work could be very important for us, as most of our culture’s backwards-facing impulse is funnelled into dry, abstracted genealogical research. I’m really happy to be publishing an excellent piece on ancestor worship by Stephen Grasso in Dreamflesh Vol. 1 - it does seem to be something worth getting your head around as we look at these issues of collapse, primitivism, what we’ve inherited and where we’re heading. Especially among those of us who reflexively dismiss our parents and grandparents because we’ve “rebelled” for whatever reason, justified or not.
September 24th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Like Gnomely, I have a problem with my ancestors, well my parents in particular, which is perhaps why I have relied upon less closely-related spirits. When younger I felt a guardian angel which I then called my Goddess. More recently I’ve been aware in a generalised way of the benign caring of angels, without feeling a bond with one in particular. And even then, I’m happy to consider “angel” as a metaphor referring to an effective power (in me? outside me? these distinctions make little sense) which protects and supports, so long as my needs are in harmony with the All.
September 24th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
One of the reasons that people in general have hated the Jews in the past, is that as a group, they told the truth about some things.
Not every thing mind you. To say the least , they were famous liars about lots of other things , like the nature of god , etc.
As a group the Jews did not believe in an afterlife. This is profound existentialism.
In history most of the humans from all round them did believe , so this was pretty radical at the time.
I think when they saw all the hocus pocus Ju Ju , stuff going on in Egypt and elsewhere around them, this may have been how they arrived at their conclusion. All the big phony statues , and silly gods with wings, and hawks heads and ridiculous preparation for the afterlife, with charms and spells and dreams to be interpreted.
Part of the reason our justice system developed , or maybe I can say a part of it developed from the idea that justice must be gotten now, and not postponed to an after life, came from this Jewish concept of justice in the here and now.
This is good or bad , depending on what you think justice is, but a direct result at least partially, of Jewish law influencing our Justice system the last couple thousand years.
I have to go with these old Jews on this particular thing.
There is no afterlife.
If you are looking for ancestor direction, I hope it won`t be in a critical situation. The mind is very interesting , how suggestible it is.
Did the Voodoo man charge you much for your reading.? You were had.
Nothing wrong with that. Believe what you will. Humans will believe any damn thing, and there is no accounting for belief.
America seems kind of supernatural struck. Bush, Hagee, Billy Graham,
You can`t have angels without demons so things get twisted pretty easy into a way to guilt people and make people feel they need to atone for all this supernatural happy horse shit stuff.
Fear of an afterlife punishment has been a favored tool to scare people with, for it seems like forever.
September 24th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
I kind of like the genetic memory idea , or genetic pot-shard idea. That we may have a link through our genes to the past, and some kind of communication with it that we don`t understand the mechanics of now.
That might explain some of the weird memories people have , as opposed to reincarnation being an explanation.
Maybe.
The mind is a strange thing. It can come up with almost any damn thing, all by its lonesome.
September 24th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Interesting contrast of views between gnomely and skip.
I used to think the existentialists were the shit myself, but with the exception of Nietzsche I now think they’re all full of it. They asked interesting questions, but that’s it.
September 24th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
What do you want to hold true to, their hopes, or their means of attaining those hopes? They wanted to give you a better life, but they lived at a time when the pattern wasn’t obvious, and they operated with a set of assumptions that we now know were flawed. If you continue their means, you will damn your children–their grandchildren and great-grandchildren–to horrible misery. But if you hold true to their hopes, and drive towards those hopes regardless of how your ancestors tried to fulfill those hopes, you come to primitivism.
It’s worthy to honor one’s ancestors, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that our ancestors are wiser or better than we are. They may well want us to keep striving away to try to make civilization something good. But if we can see that if it’s good it will never be civilization, and if it’s civilization it will never be good, then we have to choose whether we want to fulfill the letter of their wishes, or the spirit of their wishes. I prefer the latter, myself. But if you wish to thwart all their hopes by clinging to the same mistakes they made, and compounding those mistakes, that’s your own life. Fortunately for me, I doubt the world will endure such foolishness much longer, and I do not think I will be forced to suffer the consequences of such mistakes much longer. Soon, we’ll have the opportunity to make our own way, and no longer suffer for the mistakes and crimes of others.
September 24th, 2006 at 6:45 pm
Also, the vast majority of my ancestors were hunter-gatherers. Yours, too. Why should we listen only to the most recent ones, simply because we’re currently suffering the consequences of their mistakes?
September 24th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
Who’s to say that our ancestors in Sheol (or wherever they hang) do not hear and help?
This post is interesting .. I’d often wondered whether the ‘guardian angel’ or ‘guardian spirit’ or whatever one wants to name it looking out for me (and I’ve always felt looked over) was one of my ancestors. It hit me like a brainwave a few years back that it might be my paternal grandmother. There’s been no ‘proof’ subjective or otherwise to substantiate such a thought. But I always go with my gut.
I’d also mused over the years whether our prayers to any Gods weren’t acutally heard and acted upon by our ancestors. Seems to make the most sense as they’d be the ones to actually care about the little, insignificant (when you look at the size of the Cosmos) specs of dust that are us.
Any time one ‘communes with the infinite’ (10 points if you idenitfy that quote) , in any fashion, i.e., whether to one’s ancestors, or to nature spirits or various divinities or saints (and they aren’t always pleasant by the by) one receives an answer. It can be dodgy communicating with these beings and some care must be taken. I’m not discouraging anyone, I’m just saying be aware and alert and beware of what you ask for and of whom you ask it.
Once you start opening yourself up to such ‘frequencies’ you find yourself hearing and seeing things more clearly. You gain insights into things, a more sensitive perception. We kind of alreay know a lot of things, but our internal jabber prevents us from listening to our inner voice or our gut. There is a connexion between our brains and our gut - there are (otay I’m not using the correct terminology here) ganglia and neural tissues contained within our gut and our everyday mode of living shuts us off - breaks off this connexion.
Attuning to one’s ancestors, divinity (and there is divinity in all things in nature in this person’s point of view) opens us up to the ’suchness’ of things. The inter-connectedness of things. Yes we die, but there’s an imprint left somehow in the ‘cosmic whatever-ness’ and we can still communicate with that if not the actual personality themselves.
Ergg this got on a tangent. Those percosets I got after the root canal must really be taking effect, but I’ll let the jabbering stand.
September 24th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Looking back to our ancestors is especially interesting when you up the time-scale quite a bit (like you did with 100,000 years, etc). The further back you go, the more common our collective ancestral roots are.
Each of us has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 great great, etc. When you go back enough generations, it becomes quite clear that there aren’t enough unique ancestors to go around, so to speak — that is, ancestors that are mine alone but not anyone elses. It just doesn’t work like that, mathematically.
While as individuals we each have 128 great great great great great grandparents, those same ancestors probably have hundreds of super-great grandchildren — to which we’re all related. Perhaps my point is that this ancestor worship isn’t by any means an exclusive thing (”my ancestors, but not yours“).
And why stop at only 100,000 years? Why not go back to the earlier roots of life? Might we have common ancestry with the vegetable world? I’ve always like the idea that the ancients stored the keys to their wisdom in the floral world — the leaves we smoke, the grain we turn into brew, etc — keys that, when properly “ingested,” awaken us to the wisdom dormant within us.
September 24th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
Ghenghis Khan, meet your descendant, Darok
Darok, meet your ancestor Ghenghis Khan
Ghenghis Khan and Darok: “Yecch!”
(My apologies, I couldn’t resist)
September 24th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
I assume the reverend is a Christian.? It is interesting that the Christians and Jews are at odds with each other.
Good old Saul took over the Jesus stuff with some clever marketing, and razz ma tazz , and turned it into a super Jesus son of Mr.god cult.
Jesus would turn over in his grave if he could see the flim flam men , that represent him these days.
Jesus was a Jew , not a Christian, and he was a rebel.
Paul created the false image of him that people called Christians , mostly believe in .
Jesus was a tough son of bitch too, who did not spend much time in the temple.
Interesting you bring up Nietzsche. I have a pet theory that it will be the Christians that eventually destroy Israel again.
Hitler tried to reconcile Christianity in a way , as a separate thing from Judaism.
That can`t really be done. They are competing belief systems. His way of reconciling it was to wipe out the other group.
For the most part Hitlers followers were Catholics and Lutherans. That is who the Nazis were. Christians.
I don`t really have a dog in this fight , not being a religion believer.
If the Christians destroy Israel , for whatever reason , and I could name some , I won`t get into that now, they will no doubt forgive themselves, which is their specialty. They think their magical god likes that approach. Mass murder, genocide of all kinds , it does not matter.
Forgiveness works on everything.
Indeed a main part of what many Christians believe is that Israel is going to be destroyed to make way for the new Jerusalem , which will be inhabited by none other than Christians.~ ! ~
Only a very small remnant of the Jews will survive according to many of these Christians, and they will then convert to what the Christians consider the true belief system, which is Paul’s crooked and hackneyed version of a Jesus as supernatural Guru.
I pity the poor people that live in the area over there. I see death and destruction from all corners directed at them soon. Belief gets messy when defended.
Obviously the Christians have a bigger vested interest in the destruction of Israel than even the Muslims.
For them it ushers in the new golden age.
The return of their Messiah.
They think that Jesus will straighten things out pronto. Maybe even bless the few Jews left and turn them then magically into Christians.
Big trouble coming.
Belief is the culprit.
It does not have to be this way. Lets change.
Ah , but to the Christians it is prophecy and has to happen. Do you think it is possible to avoid this end of the world scenario, Mr. Rev. Max. ?
September 24th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
i don`t think it is possible to avert something you keep looking at so intently. i do athletic coaching as part of my work and i know this with certinty, you always hit the last thing you look at.
i tend to agree with the memory stored in dna. occam suggests you look at the simple answer.
September 24th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
Do you think it is possible to avoid this end of the world scenario, Mr. Rev. Max. ?
————–
I sure do. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) currently administers 264 million acres of public lands – about one-eighth of the land in the United States. So we can offer to Israeli Jews a new homeland, carved out of BLM-administered public lands.
There is plenty room to do it. Israel has an area of only about 5 million acres (7800 square miles), just slightly smaller than New Jersey. Its population includes about 5 million Jews (about the same as the number of Jews already in America). Israel’s area is less than 2% of the public land controlled by the BLM. Perhaps even a smaller area would suffice, say 2 or 3 million acres. Sufficient space could be carved out of the public land on the Utah/Nevada border, for example.
I propose, therefore, that we dedicate sufficient BLM land to form New Israel, and grant it special status as an independent territory. After a sufficient number of Israelis moved there, America could recognize it as a sovereign state.
After selecting a location and dedicating it to this purpose, the U.S. government would announce that it is withdrawing all support for Israel within, say, five to ten years (or sooner, if possible). That would give Israelis sufficient time to relocate. We could save $3 billion a year currently sent to Israel or use some or all that amount to help fund the relocation.
By offering them New Israel, we would be guaranteeing to Israelis a homeland and a better life (albeit, farther away from the Wailing Wall and Arab bombs). The New Israelis would be closer to civilization and their 6 million Jewish-American cousins; the land would no doubt be more fertile and scenic; and New Israelis would no longer have to put up with bombings and daily fighting.
September 24th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
I kind of like this idea. It sounds just crazy enough that it could work. I would opt for the sooner option you mention.
We could just turn over that area down near Waco. For some reason it attracts lots of weird cults , and they might feel more at home around there.
I am not so sure your idea will catch on because so many people are pushing for the other idea of Apocalypse and all that , but this idea seems like a whole lot more creative than destroying the world over the other idea.
One problem that could come up is the thing about god supposedly being their real estate agent, and promising that particular place. Many of them actually believe that , even though I know that sounds ridiculous.
Location , Location.
That will be the tricky part . I like this idea though.
September 24th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
I am fascinated by your post, Tim. I purposely never read your post on the reading you recently underwent. I felt I should wait until the time was right. Now, I feel tonight is the night.
I have always believed in Reincarnation and the importance of ancestor. When I first heard of ancestor worship in college I was fascinated. A nice, light fiction read is Praise Song for the Widow. (and its not by that author I keep trying to get you to read)
I was born with a lot of what I call “pre-information” and have been working to capitalize on my paranormal experiences basically my whole life. I have been reluctant to try anything I have learned about ancestor worship for fear of inviting the uninvited.
One thing that has prompted a change in my apprehension was the birth of my second daughter. I thought for a while that she might be my grandmother. Then I dreamt of my grandmother recently. So now I am curious. Intrigued, actually. Either way, I am off to read about your reading.
September 25th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Oh, I didn’t know that. If I abandon my reliance upon angels, will it help eradicate demons?
September 25th, 2006 at 8:57 am
I don`t know. You might have to consult with your family witch doctor for that kind of info Yves. My guess is that it would though.
Belief is funny in that there is no accounting for it. It is in the mind of the beholder.
I am sure several wars have been started over the question you pose.
It makes sense to me to relegate belief to interesting conjecture and comedy/tragedy.
Belief separates and drives people to act out abstract, unprovable things.
It also makes an interesting and effective way to enslave people with brainwashing.
Do you really believe in Angels for real.? Possibly just in a poetic way,? or for real.?
September 25th, 2006 at 9:55 am
What constitutes as proof? Why does everything have to be proven? Is not the idea that “all must be proven, or it is not real” merely a belief?
Personally, I’m realizing I need to grow out of (or beyond) the cultural-instilled part of me that feels I need to prove or explain everything. It brings to mind the example from the film Contact, in which the religious guy asks the scientist “Did you love your father? Prove it!” (which she couldn’t do in a concrete sense).
A quick example from my experience…. I’m getting married in less than a week and have found my recent dreams to be VERY significant on a symbolic level. Tons of dreams about the end of the world but also rebirth. One of these dreams had me thrust into a space shuttle just about to launch. We made it to Mars. Upon arriving, we coast through a canyon on Mars (full of water)… and right before us, the water split like the Red Sea.
To see the sea split right before me was amazing, yet in the dream I instinctively found myself explaining the event, as if it was meaningless unless I could ascribe credit to it through explaination (robbing the symbol of its magic). Among other things, this was a wake-up call for me to let go of this seeming inner-necessity to explain everything. Knowing the path is one thing, walking it is something else entirely.
September 25th, 2006 at 10:13 am
When something is a fact it does not have to be agonized over.
A fact is different than a belief.
All theory, philosophy, law, or hypothesis are man made and thus subject to change at mankind`s whims.
All facts, found or future, have always existed. Fact is nature`s foundation ; facts are never repudiated by facts. Opinions are never facts.
You do not have to worry about proving facts.
As far as loving someone, that is a thorny one. A pretty rose too.
Belief is what people fight over. The reality is that we are all the same. Also we are all individuals with dreams and ideas.
How about we let go of belief and let people believe whatever they want. Maybe just separate that from important things.
In other words why come to blows over belief.? That is what is happening now in the world. That is why I say we are victims of belief.
September 25th, 2006 at 10:16 am
People agonize over unpleasant facts, and fight to convince others and prove facts, all the time. People can very easily not believe in facts, and facts can come with very unpleasant implications worth agonizing over.
September 25th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
The thing about feeling the prescence of spirits is that you can never truly prove that your mind isn’t just playing tricks on you.
September 25th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Inside your mind is the only reality you’ll ever know, so which one’s the trick? The spirit, or the idea of an objective reality?
September 25th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
Per Karl Popper, everything in science must be falsifiable, i.e., there has to be someway to prove or disprove it experimentally, to verify it via experiment.
So, if it can’t be proven it is not science. God is not science, the existence of other universes is not science, the existence of justice or love or compassion is not science, the afterlife is not sicence.
Nobody can state with certainty and be taken seriously as a scientist that god exist or doesn’t, that love exists or doesn’t, that the afterlife exists or doesn’t.
Skip states - asserts flatly - “there is no afterlife.” But unless he has died and returned - i.e., flat brainwaves followed by resuscitation - he assertion is pure metaphysical speculation as are all assertions the contrary within the context of science.
Now, speaking as a witchdoctor, I can tell you that the spirits of the departed exist and are all around us, as are the animist spirits of nature and the gods and goddesses of various places and things (e.g., war, the cemetary, sexual passion, communication, etc.)
Do I expect you to believe me? No. “See to believe.” You hgve to experience these things to know them, otherwise it is just heresay. Trying to explain what spirits are and are like is like trying to explain the appeal of intercourse to someone who hasn’t gone through puberty yet.
If you want to meet with the spirits of the dead or encounter spirits in nature, cast your wish out there and see what happens. Make a mojo hand, start writing your dreams down, experiment with shamanic drumming. You will discover that not only ar ethese things real but very powerful and can easily backlash and bite you in the ass if you aren’t prepared and don’t treat them with respect.
As for the opinions of people who are dismissive of magic and spirits but aren’t willing to leave their own comfort zone and explore for themselves, that’s like me saying that Western Europe doesn’t exist because I’ve never been there.
Everyone’s entitled to their opinion but from my POV an informed opinion is the only one worth listening too, the rest is just ignorance and bluster based on fear and laziness.
September 25th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
In a poetic way. I try not to believe in anything for real. It creates clutter. I don’t believe in demons even in a poetic way.
September 25th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
I do . I like to say sometimes for fun , that if there is such a thing as the Devil it is these religious people.
I guess that is cruel of me , but I can`t help it. I thinks its funny.
If you believe in Angels in a poetic way , give devils a shot also. They come in handy to describe some ignorant and treacherous things that humans do.
I imagine that both terms were originally made up to describe types of people.
I think the big mistake would be to think there is an entity like this outside of our imagination. Many people are tricked with both concepts this way.
September 25th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
Pop Culture Nerd Time!
that’s a lot like how Beloc describes the Ark of the Covanent in Raders of the Lost Ark. Put’s an interesting christian spin on it, no?
September 25th, 2006 at 9:10 pm
My approach too is to take things poetically and not literally, not to say yes or no but to be open to possibilities from a silent state. The beauty of life is not dependent upon belief, the more one is free from their conditioning the more one is aware and can see how deep the beauty runs and permeates things….
But I do not agree with the statement “I think the big mistake would be to think there is an entity like this outside of our imagination”
I don’ think it would be a big mistake at all. I think the possiblity does exist. It takes a little bit of faith to side step the logical constructs built by the rational mind but bla…
Tim Boucher is at a different state in which there is no debate- spirits exist and that is the reality.
September 25th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
Mr. Rev Max , I get a kick out of all the various belief systems. I see you have dredged up Plato to show some point. I assume that you are what is referred to as a Christian , besides the witch doctor stuff.?
The Christians certainly came close to making Plato a retroactive saint.
In fact to some degree he was one of the main people that popularized in a pop culture kind of way the corny theory of the immortality of the soul.
In antiquity he was the object of much ridicule and scorn by his contemporaries.
It was pretty much agreed on at the time of Plato by most of the Greek intellectuals , that Isocrates was the hands down winner in the battle of these two intellects that competed on not so friendly terms with each other.
Plato later became wildly popular as a kind of authority for the after death believers.
As mentioned he was the hands down loser in the period when he was alive , and debating with Isocrates. I love Isocrates. While I don`t agree always he sure could talk.
September 25th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
Yes, I’m a christian.
Unfortunately, I didn’t know Plato personally and so can’t vouch for his character.
September 25th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
‘You can`t have angels without demons.’
“Oh, I didn’t know that. If I abandon my reliance upon angels, will it help eradicate demons?”
This puts me in mind of a struggle involved in the reworking of beliefs (or understanding, if you will) to include “witchdoctor-y” things. Not knowing keeps you insulated, in a manner of speaking. When you start looking, a lot of times the scenery isn’t always lovely. I seem to have that problem, especially before I understand how to deal with the new situations– I offer that as a potential explanation for the widespread resistance to this type of thing. There are no demons in science.
September 25th, 2006 at 11:01 pm
People set out many interesting and attractive snares to catch the gullible. There is a reason that the religious holey men call their followers , the flock, or sheep.
There are no demons in science. Nice that this is true. It would seem that they are all over elsewhere though with people scaring , or trying to scare us into their belief systems.
Religious people are the front people for the Economic and Political system we have.
The three groups betray us into belief of one thing or another , mostly because of the material advantage that the power possessors wield that way.
Many of the people actually involved in religion don`t understand this dynamic , and that they are pawns, for other pawns.
People are afraid of freedom and responsibility, so they prefer to hide behind the prison bars which they build around themselves.
God can only be comprehended personally. Each person has their own god, their protector and judge. Priests and rituals are only crutches for the crippled life of the soul.
Deceivers always try to solve difficult problems on the cheap.
September 25th, 2006 at 11:06 pm
There’s Maxwell’s Demon!
September 26th, 2006 at 8:34 am
God’s toenails I’m a berk - I posted this on another section - damnable I-net!
It just occurred to me the other night how I have often wondered whether any luck I have had or whether any situations where I have been saved as in - yeh it was shitty but it could have been a whole lot worse - or wherein I have always been saved from the worst - was due to the Chesed of my ancestors - on my father’s side. Chesed is similar to the Buddhist concept of merit.
So think on that - that perhaps your good fortune or your saving graces have been due to the Chesed of your ancestors.
I note that people in general prefer intellectual argumentation too much to just consider this sort of thing on a contemplative level. It’s far easier to blast it apart with words and intellect and … ultimately … nothing.
No … really … contemplate it - it’s not rational - it’s not intellectual - you can’t really cogitate about it. It doesn’t work that way. No ritual works that way. No reaching to the infinite works that way. You can’t even really talk about it - you can only talk around it. And talking doesn’t do anyting anyway.
Try it. Shut your brain up and don’t be afraid. See what comes to you.