19 Reader Responses

1. Lily Sword Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 11:58 am

   you tell ‘em!

2. chutney Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 1:45 pm

   To push back: but if you want it that bad, and you are capable, why wouldn’t you have fulfilled yourself already?

3. alistair Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 2:12 pm

   that`s the thing…….they do have all of our power. that is the great conspiracy. the enslavement of us through social security, which is niether social or secure……….the only thing we have is our spiritual freedom, when we choose.
   it will get to the point where they get good enough to make a happy pill to make us actually, well, reasonably compliant, if not happy. most are just hypnotised into the consumerist cycle of new this that or the other thing.
   i remember a friend of mine giving a speech in front of a group of mutual fund investors. he said everything will be ok as long as we just continue to spend……..
   he was right.
   and as a reward we get not quite satisfying products that we have to work harder to pay for. thankfully i pay cash for my toys………or i wait until i can.
   the hard work will continue, because the machines must stay running.
   we need to sort out the difference between consumer products and real happiness. the real satisfaction. the real love. the real peace.
   i have noticed there are flashes occasionally………….a smile or a moment or a swing of a hip or the flash of something thrilling……but the moments pass and we must resist the urge to try to grasp.
   have faith in the fact that there will be other moments.

4. Francis Scully Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 4:10 pm

   Ironically, I stumbled onto this same realization when I was about 11y-old (~12y-ago; but had forgotten). I used to argue on an ongoing basis with religious fundamentalists, that if they could actually convince me that their religious semantics were correctly aligned with reality, then I’d give them a lifetime of my services evangelizing the inherent ideas contained within, as well as use my logistics to help walk others through the same process.

   However, no one was able to convince their way past my logistics, and the debate usually ended with their attempt to convince me that my logic was a product of demonic forces and that they had felt sorry for me. Yet, now that I look back, their sorrow & demonization were unto itself a product of the same semantics that they used to try to communicate & debate with me; and equally had no lasting impact in my search for what it is that I wanted.

   Their failure to go out on a limb to convincingly convince me, only showed me that they failed to convince themselves of the importance of their own evangelization process. Further, they would risk accepting their own conclusion, even if they could’ve been wrong, …even if it meant that they won’t be able to acquire my strict evangelization process that I was looking for as well as offering, if mutual understanding had been attained.

   But at the same time, and equally disturbing, I remember one time when I was eating in a christian vegetarian restaraunt, the owner had this strange belief that every single person on this planet has had the chance to accept jesus into their life. I asked him, what about the starving children/parents that have no access to these ideas, let alone little/no access to food/water. If they had a choice to save up money to buy food, or save up money to buy their biblical text, would you wish their death just so they could read from this biblical text to accept jesus? He still kept to his word and said that, some way, some how, they HAD to have had a chance, at some point, to accept jesus into their life; no matter how obsurd I had twisted the contextual situation to be.

   However, on a slightly parallel note, food & water are rather important elements for human survival. Likewise, most of the food and a large portion of water, are controlled by large corporations that don’t place a fair amount of importance on whether or not someone is convinced of anything. Otherwise known as dictatorship/bribery, they sit at control panels &/or board meetings and make decisions that effect people’s ability to live. Some of those decisions have intended processes attatched to it, herding others into corner(s) that forces the choice between seeming-acceptance or death. One can choose not to give in to seeming-acceptance, but within those constructs, death would’ve been the final ultimatum; and thus powerlessness would’ve still manifested, unless escape was traversed effectively.

   Of course, we don’t have to look very far to see where this seemingly applies. Everywhere from requiring to give one’s own time to jobs in order to survive in this culture, to starvation &/or homelessness if you don’t accept this culture, to sweatshop slave-labour systemic-processes, to anti-union activity if multiple people gather together to try and gain power over oppressors, and more… Of course, it’s not always that cut & dry, and there’s always loop holes, as nature has it’s own in-built system of similar proportions. Social-reality & power-struggles are too rich in complexity to deem the probability of one’s power to not accept others’ power over one’self; not to say that it doesn’t happen.

   I hope that I’m not confusing anyone, because now I’m confusing myself, lol…

5. Michael Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 6:08 pm

   HENCE, THEY ARE FUCKED. I AM NOT.

   that part made me think PKD

6. Michael Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 6:29 pm

   I had sometime to think about it, and I realized that there is an ultimate product, at least for me any way…………………..

   …. the cheese dog

7. Brekin Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 6:52 pm

   It could be argued that the corporations, governments, etc have made this product: heroin, crack, meth, etc. I don’t know what the percentage of people who take these products end up addicted to them, but as everything else in the world gets run down more and more they’ll probably be more and more people turning to the needle or whatever with less supposed reason to not use them. And no doubt alot of people become slaves to fulfill their fix of fulfillment at the expense of everything and everyone else.
   Maybe enlightenment is not the same as fulfillment and drug products simplify your quest down to one need, but potentially a drug could fulfill all your desires, wants and needs because it removes all others to one.

8. aditi tahiti Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 10:08 pm

   I was just meditating on the following concept today:

   “The sixth breathing technique: When in worldly activity, keep attention between two breaths, and so practicing, in a few days, be born anew.

   The theory of destiny, bhagya-fate. It has a very deep meaning. And the meaning is, if you take it that everything is fixed for you, your life becomes a drama. Everything is fixed, even your dialogue. You cannot change it if life is taken as fixed.

   For example, you are going to die on a particular day-it is fixed. When you will be dying you will be weeping, but it is fixed. And such and such persons will be around you-it is fixed. If everything is fixed, everything becomes a drama. If everything is fixed, it means you are just to enact it. you are not asked to live it, you are just asked to enact it.

   This technique, the sixth technique, is just to make yourself a psychodrama-just a play. You are focused in the gap between two breaths and life moves on, on the periphery. If your attention is at the center, then your attention is not really on the periphery-that is just “subattention”‘ it just happens somewhere near your attention. You can feel it, you can know it, but it is not significant. It is as if it is not happening to you. If you practice this sixth technique, your whole life will be as if it is not happening to you, as if it is happening to someone else.”

   as described by Osho in “The Book of Secrets”

9. mandi Says:
   September 25th, 2006 at 10:22 pm

   *Sticks a fist in the air*
   Down with the man!

   THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN BECOME MORE POWERFUL THAN ME IS IF I GIVE UP ALL MY POWER AND ENERGY (MONEY, DEDICATION, ETC) TO THEM, AND THEY CAN ONLY GET ME TO DO THAT BY FULFILLING ME.

   . . .because you buy into the system for yourself, and not for them. You always have the option of leaving, subverting–

   which adds a level of culpability. They can never win. But they can only keep you where you allow them to keep you.

10. prunes Says:
    September 25th, 2006 at 11:03 pm

    You cannot change it if life is taken as fixed.

    I was thinking about 7th day Adventists the other day, this is one of those denominations that tends to splinter off into competing groups. The big thing about them is that they take the Bible as prophecy in a rather unique way, they have no problem with the idea that the same passage can mean different things at different times (unusual in Christianity!) and Koresh (to name a notorious example) believed that the interpretations he was receiving from the spirit, the prophecies of the bible, applied directly to the events happening right now, not in vague apocalyptic terms, but in specifics. He based his negotiations with the FBI on what he believed was prophesied about that very encounter.

    So I was thinking about this in light of perennialism, where all phenomena are interpreted spiritually, all the world becomes a symbol of God, and it seems like prophecy as understood by 7th day adventists could therefore function as a gnosis, as opposed to the ‘historical’ interpretation of prophecy that most fundies have. I don’t know many members of this church, I could be completely off base, but I liked the idea.

11. slomo Says:
    September 26th, 2006 at 6:34 am

    The big thing about them is that they take the Bible as prophecy in a rather unique way, they have no problem with the idea that the same passage can mean different things at different times (unusual in Christianity!)

    The universe is a fractal. Every text implies, at a deep level, every other text and everything else about the universe. This is why text-based divination systems (e.g. I Ching and Tarot) work.

    One the issue of power: ultimately, no person or organization possesses any kind of spiritual power over you. You have to give it to them. Worldly power, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. Travel to a third-world dictatorship and you’ll see what I mean.

12. John Emersons Foot Says:
    September 26th, 2006 at 6:59 am

    Weird,

    Just a few hours ago I had a sudden revelation and threw disjointed notes onto scattered papers to form a crazy buisness plan. I’m going to take the words ‘perfect product’ as a good sign.

    It could be argued that the corporations, governments, etc have made this product: heroin, crack, meth, etc.

    I’d almost agree, except for the limited appeal, and the fact that they all create tolerance pretty quickly. As far as drugs go, modafinil/adrafainil/apakines come a bit closer. Despite the marketing, they all come with eventual tolerance as well though. Alchohol is the absolute nearest to realising the dream of a perfect, chemical, product that can get someone through the day to day. But, even it doesn’t make it. It’s not perfect if the people who create it can escape. I’d argue its the game the politicians plan that’s the honey trap. Both the bee monarchy and the bear are equally forced into the cycle. It’s a motor powered by sybiosis, instinct, culture, and the apes love of being an ape.

13. Thomas Conlon Says:
    September 26th, 2006 at 7:17 am

    hehe the good thing is that you can grow it yourself!!!

14. alistair Says:
    September 26th, 2006 at 8:27 am

    I WANT A COMPANY TO SELL ME THE PERFECT PRODUCT, WHICH SATISFIES MY EVERY NEED AND DESIRE FULLY. IN EXCHANGE FOR THIS PRODUCT, I AM WILLING TO PAY ALL THE MONEY I HAVE EVER HAD, CURRENTLY HAVE, OR HAVE THE ABILITY TO SOMEDAY HAVE. AS I BELIEVE THAT HAVING THIS PRODUCT WILL MAKE IT SO THAT I DON’T NEED MONEY ANYMORE. AND IF THE COST IS GREATER THAN THE SOME OF MONEY DESCRIBED ABOVE THEN I WILLINGLY WORK AS A SLAVE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE IN ORDER TO PAY OFF THE DIFFERENCE. JUST GIVE ME THIS PRODUCT: MY PURPOSE IN LIFE AND IT’S COMPLETE AND UTTER FULFILLMENT.

    it does sound like drug addiction.

    i spent time with my chiropractor yesterday. we went to starbucks after my ankle adjustment (broken ankles take a while to heal…..) and he brought about twenty pages that he had printed out from the acura website promoting the new suv. to me it`s a piece of junk for seventy grand. the point is that he was having a religious experience over a transportation appliance……..an ugly one at that. the problem is that people believe that the feeling will last and that they will always be deleriously happy with thier new shiny vehicle………or whatever they buy.
    you could substitute any product in that example. refridgerator, couch, stereo…….even relationships.

    advertisers do a good job of bringing on the epiphany…………..

15. alistair Says:
    September 26th, 2006 at 8:29 am

    ………….building our desire for things external to the self, while attacking the value we have on our self in the first place.

    the perfect co-dependancy.

16. Darok Says:
    September 26th, 2006 at 10:06 am

    O How I lurved that post and how I want it to be true - for THAT I might give you some $$$

    However, we’re so conditioned - even those in power are so conditioned - to do this, think that, buy this, eat that, etc etc that we really are slaves - of a machine, of an inexorable ‘them’?

    I think even ‘the man’ is enslaved - but to what? Well, it’s like some runaway dragon’s taken hold of us and we don’t even know that it’s a dragon. It’s some unidentifiable ‘it’ that we’ve created and forgotten.

    Cheers!

    D.

17. Michael Says:
    September 26th, 2006 at 5:58 pm

    I think even ‘the man’ is enslaved - but to what?

    I think that “the man” is enslaved to the same thing; getting The Product. Only “he” thinks “he” can get it by manipulating others, by gaining power. Maybe that’s what you were trying to say, I wasn’t clear on it.

18. Darok Says:
    September 27th, 2006 at 11:53 am

    @ Michael - yes, that’s not a bad way of interpreting it. ‘The man’ is enslaved to his ’side’ of the product - the power, the manipulation, etc etc and so forth.

    I was just trying to say that we’re all caught up in something we’ve (mankind - yes - mankind although women tend to follow and THAT’s another tangeant for another day - I do have such interesting talks with my friends as we hike in the woods) made which has run away with us. We don’t even know exactly what ‘it’ is anymore, it’s so ingrained that it seems ‘natural’ or ‘normal’.

19. Thomas Conlon Says:
    September 27th, 2006 at 7:23 pm

    service=citizenship

    -R. Heinlein
    “starship troopers”