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Children of a Troubled World
I’ve heard it said that certain sects of ancient gnostics believed so strongly that this entire world was a prison that they refused to have children, so that they would not be responsible for trapping other souls within this hellish place. (If anybody knows more about this, please comment more about it below)
I’ve been going back and forth with myself and others about this same subject in relation to our current world for quite some time now. For people who really do believe the world is in a terrible place and that things are only getting worse from here on out, would you be willing to tell me about your kids? Do you have any? Do you want to have any? How can you reconcile this dilemma in yourself? How does your spouse feel about your thoughts in this area?
Part of me wants very much to agree with these ancient gnostics and to say that we should bar the doors so no more victims can get imprisoned. But I tend to think that biology is a great deal stronger (and perhaps therefore more important) than ideology. The other part of me is beginning to believe (though I have no kids myself) that if the world is in trouble, then its up to us to pass on ideals we think will fix things to the next generation. Whether that’s done through having kids of your own, adopting, or simply interacting with and teaching kids. Even if our ideals are wrong, even if our message is faulty, don’t we owe it to them to give them a chance to make it right - just like hopefully we are having a chance to make things right?
I’m having a hard time deciding just where it is I stand on these things, and would very much like to hear other people’s thoughts on the matter - especially all you pessimists out there; now’s your time to shine!
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October 4th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
From an interview with Mckenna [ Here ]
October 4th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
I was planting trees once and this old man said, “You have to be an optimist to plant a tree.” I think the same thing goes if you consciously decide to have a child.
October 4th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Well, I’m not really a pessimist so I might not belong in this discussion but I’m not an all out optimist either so…
I do believe that civilization is currently in decline but the reason is that all the wrong people are having the most children. Generally, people who have the most that’s worthwhile to pass on - ideas, values - have only one or two children or none at all while all the backward and uneducated people keep on having large families and bringing their children up to be intolerant and ignorant. I believe every intelligent person should have at least two children; otherwise, the future really will be as bad as we fear it will be.
October 4th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Every thing advances the truth, even lies. Shadows do not block out the sun.
There was an early American cult , Shakers I think, that did not believe in having children. They died out within about a generation. Not surprising ha.
Having kids is done for lots of reasons. In my mind the saddest would be to have little status symbol objects, that are bragged about for this and that. Kind of like something to go along with the McHouse in the Burbs.
As places in the world, go our population here is high. Not horrible though. Go ahead and knock up some chick. You can always join the army , or make tracks.
Just don`t do it the same way as everyone else.
October 4th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
You can always check back in 20 years to see how they did.
October 4th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
With all due respect to the gnostics- the world is more than a prison. It is also incomprehensibly beautiful and odd. (And if sensitive Gnostics don’t want to give birth to babies that leaves other people to pick up their slack.)
I am sustained by having a sense of wonder, a feeling of the mysterious, understanding all of life is spiritual(Tao & Zen), and that reality is a creative process. That frees my perception from feeling all of life is a prision that the whole world is hell.
Last night I was enchanted by the wind blowing and the leaves falling from the tree, what a simple joy! I thank God I was born to experience such a lovely moment. I am glad I got to be a conscious part of life. It would be neat to give birth so another conscious could experience the many forms, possibilities and dimensions of life.
And so having a child you are bringing forth another being who can experience the joys and beauties as well as the sorrow and suffering of life. It would be important to teach the child the importance of a meditative mind early in life.
October 4th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
The Gnostic sect you are talking about is the Cathars. There was another sect alot like them that practiced homosexuality. I can’t remember their name. It started with a “B”.
October 4th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
although to discourage such an idea, there would be a fear of giving birth to a hideous freak or an Edward Gorey like beastly baby http://www.amazon.com/Beastly-Baby-Edward-Gorey/dp/0926637142
October 4th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Space Case I think the other sect you mention was the Bend over and spread em, sect.
They didn`t last that long.
October 4th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
FWIW, not all (in fact pretty much only a very, very few) Gnostics abstained from having children. The ones more noted for this standpoint were Medieval para-Gnostics like the Cathars and Bogomils (who thought the only acceptable sex was anal sex, thus our word “buggery”). The classical Gnostics didn’t leave too much in their records about their attitudes towards childbearing; many ascetic Gnostics were opposed to it, but one could find the same attitude in ascetic groups throughout the world.
Most Gnostics I know believe that having children is neither here nor there when considering matters spiritual. They point to certain Sufi traditions in which one can’t become a master *unless* one has had children, and also to the fact that having children is indeed one of the best ways to try to make the world a better place.
October 4th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
I think the phrase , Hey, stop buggering me , came from the people that lived in the proximity of the Bogomils.
October 4th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
I was thiniking about the same thing a while ago. Me and some friends were taling about if we would ever have kids, and this girl was like “yeah, i couldn’t change diapers or get puked on, so i could never have kids…” (By the way, this isn’t my most intellegent circle of friends, i havn’t tried to explain gnostisism to them…yet) I, who haddn’t said anything for a while, looked up and said “Yeah, I don’t think I could bear to bring more people to suffer in this world,” which everyone thought was really deep, if kind of emo. But then it got me thinking, and I thougt of what Lynn S said:
also, like gnomely, i don’t think this world is totally horrible. It’s just, as Phil Dick put it, insane. Sure, it sucks, but it there is beauty in it too.
Tim, your a gardener for god’s sake! Surely you know the beauty of nature. (the paradox of gnostic gardener just occured to me… hahah!)And the more people like us there are, people who resisit the Black Iron Prison, the better off we are.
October 4th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
I’d say that the backwardness/uneducatedness of a person is really only one aspect to the entire spectrum of their self. For example, some might think that a lot of farmers are uneducated, but despite possibly not graduating high school, they know a hell of a lot about the natural world. And even if someone is intolerant and ignorant, that only comes up within a certain setting, and in other settings they’re still functioning as a part of society. I think everyone in the world will be labeled ignorant/intolerant/stupid by someone. On top of that, their are a lot more factors involved in raising children than just the parents.
October 4th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Actually, I kind of stretched the truth when I said that. It’s not that I don’t know where I stand (I believe the children are the future, as they say), it’s just that I’m not sure how to express it and was hoping someone else would unearth whatever is left over in this debate that is really bothering me. So far, no luck. There’s some itch I can’t quite scratch here…
October 4th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Hilariously phrased - nice work! What was your response in this conversation?
October 4th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
I think this is interesting and all, but why should we listen to what a mushroom says…? Somebody explain that to me
October 4th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
The mushroom might say something really cool , you know like Mr. Hanke on that cartoon show. Ever watch South Park. ?
Look the worst case scenario is that you might bring someone into the world and it might not turn out good. Serial killer, patricide, they could become a politician. You would not be responsible. After they are 18 you are off the hook.
I know what it is Tim. Maybe. You are really wondering about who the hell you would have a kid with, and what your relationship to that person would be.
Isn`t that the real tricky part of the whole deal.? In some ways the kid is extraneous to that.
My advice even though not sought is to try and get laid first. Then you can think about the other stuff.
Men usually figure out a relationship in about 3 weeks. It`s all either fake after that , or you really like the person.
October 4th, 2006 at 11:47 pm
i have two boy. aged 10 and 7. they are absolute loves. they totally consume my focus. i am recently seperated and only see them twice a week for brief periods due to my living arrangements, temporarily. we are in court now arguing over assets and so this will be my life for the forseable future.
it toook me until i was 36 to have children. i was one of the “this world is shit” types who felt that this world had nothing to offer children………….and i have my suspicions even now. but the fact remains that they are alive and they know me as thier father and i intend that to remain the case. i wouldn`t have chosen to have children. thier mother was willing to leave me otherwise and i wanted the relationship. so, here we all are.
the critics will say that was a poor reason to have children, but from my children`s point of view it was the best choice imaginable…………
i have made this through my decisions and so i will make the best of it. i have been given the greatest responsibilty of all. that of the lives of two children, even though my ex is trying to legally change that…………
it all comes down to how your children view you. once you have children you begin to understand this. unless you are a ruthless, cold-hearted robot who`s uterus ran your life for a period of time before early menopause…………..
yes, i`m bitter over the situation, but tim, you asked.
my view culturally is that there has been an attack on the family. this attack has been a long time in the planning. alan watt makes the case succinctly. i`ve posted links to his site elsewhere. there isn`t really an individual to blame in seperations. the society at large is now designed to destroy families before they can begin.
the simple proof is that we see seprations and divorces escalating and more people choosing to not commit to relationships at all. many people ten years or more younger than me at 46 are totally against steady relationships at all. it means that the nuclear family is dissolving, and with it all the values inherent in that institution.
and the care-giver waiting for the children born to busy single people?
the state.
October 5th, 2006 at 1:55 am
Comes down to happiness. I choose happiness, not the prison. The prison might be there too but the happiness is certainly real. You may be trapped on the second floor of a burning building but the view out the window is beautiful. Beautiful. I choose beauty.
Like alstair, I have two children and was reluctant to bring any into this world. It’s a rough world out there but it always has been. And I have suspected what he suggests to be true for long time - there is an attack on family out there and it is succeeding. Alot of the structure of our society is designed, it would seem, to destroy family life and families.
But like happiness, we choose to make a family. We want to have a family. We work at being family members to one another. We make a priority. We define it on our terms, (like happiness), not on society’s terms or tv’s terms or whatever.
It’s working. Sometimes we are deleriously happy my little family and I.
Beauty. Happiness. Family.
October 5th, 2006 at 6:57 am
I’ve not heard a mushroom speak, so I can’t really comment from experience, but McKenna’s view was that this was the voice of, if not just the mushroom species, then possibly that of the biosphere (or aliens, or the Logos, etc.). And that we need to pay more heed to these voices buried in nature.
Of course you can take your preferred route and “listen” in a much more general, delicate way, through ongoing interaction with plants rather than this rather dramatic interaction. This way is probably a bit less ambiguous… but then, why choose between them?
The better question isn’t “why should we listen to a mushroom?” (shit, a talking mushroom is bizarre enough to warrant attention in any case!), but “why should we believe a mushroom?” (I suspect this was actually your question). Well, McKenna was profoundly anti-belief, and didn’t “believe” the mushroom any more than he’d believe a guru or whatever. You question it, converse, and weigh up its statements against your own experiences.
In this case, the mushroom seemed to be talking some sort of sense in relation to real world issues. It’s not that much of a curveball - for a mushroom! (I guess it spoke to McKenna after he’d had his second kid.) I appreciate the questions about whether the world is nice or beautiful enough to bring a kid into, but the real issue is a little more quantitative for once, to do with our rate of resource consumption. Having more than one kid seems stupid or selfish in the current situation - I’d say one at maximum, and past that, adopt. Otherwise you’re making the world a worse place for everyone.
Enforcing this is a distinctly prickly issue of course, but some things - like all forces that prevent access to contraceptives - should clearly be wiped away. Then we get to the changing age distribution, and how to support vast elderly populations with dwindling young populations, and it’s even more complex. A tough, tough issue.
October 5th, 2006 at 8:04 am
forces that prevent access to contrceptives………….. like the catholic church you mean?
to gary i say enjoy being a part of the family unit and treasure the sanctitiy of it as the last vestiges of stability in a dying society. the family is the recepticle of all that refers to unconditional love. it`s where we learn the concept. not through words, but through the devotion of our parents and thier actions. everything else is a re-action. the politics, the wars, the health care industry…………all trying to make the wrongs right.
October 5th, 2006 at 8:44 am
Who says the world hasn’t always been troubled? And likewise, who is to say that mushroom’s answer hasn’t been the same for all time? This seems like an age-old dilemma of the human condition to me. Conditions in which to have chidlren could always be more ideal. Personally, I’m growing to think that it is very selfish to think that “the world is going to hell!” viewpoint is unique to our generation. My parents and grandparents told me they felt the same way growing up. Check out stories about the end-of-the-world predictions of the past (always occuring).
You can bring up the “yeah, but, civilization has been in collapse that whole time and is even closer now,” blah blah blah, but I’m thinking that is equally self-serving. The world is ending a little bit every day. And the new world is being created in its place. If you don’t want to have kids, fine — this has always been a valid choice people have made. But, any one person’s individual proclivities on the matter don’t “make it so” for all of us — no matter have much “evidence” they may present.
October 5th, 2006 at 9:01 am
Hell , I was talking to a mushroom just the other day. It didn’t answer back , but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t taking me seriously. I said to it , It`s the end of the world as we know, and I feel fine.
I was kinda expecting a canned response from the mushroom . It came out of one.
October 5th, 2006 at 9:03 am
I’m inflicting the world upon my children, but I’m also inflicting my children upon the world. You’ve seen the velociraptors in Jurassic Park, right? Yeah, meet my kids and fuckin stand back. I’m not saying they behave badly, but that they perform superbly. Exploring, testing, subverting and surpassing everything I am and have ever done. If I brought them into a prison world, if I made a prison for them, it will not hold them. Who then has the most to fear?
Life will find a way. Haha.
October 5th, 2006 at 9:07 am
An open letter to a pessimist from a ‘breeder’:
The experience of being alive is worth being imprisoned for, is worth suffering for, is worth dying for.
If I am wrong, then not only should you not have children, you should kill yourself immediately. You too are a child, and should not have to suffer so. Go on, kid. Get outta here.
If I am right, then why would you not want to bestow the same blessing upon someone else? Keeping it all for yourself?
While you work out whether I’m right or wrong, or try to find a gray area of indecision in which to wallow, just keep soaking up that experience. I’m getting more right by the moment.
Pessimists don’t shine. What would be the point?
October 5th, 2006 at 9:14 am
Only you can remedy overpopulation. Kill yourself now and avoid the rush.
Not so tough. Eat the elderly.
I’m dead serious. If overpopulation is such a big fucking deal then make yourself useful. Feed the next generation. Or at least get out of the damn way. Boomers think they gonna live forever.
“No kids! I got here first!”
If only your ancestors had been so thoughtful.
October 5th, 2006 at 9:50 am
Dali, the famous painter and his wife decided to not have children because he thought it would be unfair to them. Why.? Because in their opinion , any children they might have could not be as great as they were, so it would not be fair to them. Ha Ha.~!
As far as Unthinkable , I would not want to eat the elderly. To many toxins. It might be more reasonable to recycle them into dog food , at the end of a normal life. That would avoid the burial or cremation process.
Also any carbon based animal can be recycled into energy now. They are making oil out of turkey parts. I think the ratio is something like 200,000 pounds of turkey offal or rendering makes about 90 barrels of oil. Talk about recycling
We could recycle 100% . That would seem like a natural thing to do.
Anyway humans as dog food.? Dogs could probably process the toxic part no sweat.
October 5th, 2006 at 11:37 am
SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!
Yah, my wife and I are going back and forth with this too. Alistair writes:
Alistair, I agree am with you both age and philosophy-wise.
I my own case, my dad died when I was 9 and for many years I figured the die was cast, there was no point in having kids because I would likely do the same.
This is a very common phenom BTW - people who die at the same age and of the same causes as the same-sex parent - see Karl Menninger’s Man Against Himself - the Psychology of Self-Destruction.
Anywho, I’ve been lately thinking though, that OF COURSE I am going to die, we all are, however knowing that you are going to die is no reason not to live. The subconscious identification of children with mortality is well-established - yer preparing to pass on teh baton to the next generation.
But its not like you live forever if you don’t have kids either, you just have to find different ways to pass on knowledge or provide nurturing and guidance to the next generation of humans.
ANd on that tip, because I’m such a fucking genius and so damned good looking I used to also think that it would be a shame not to pass on my own DNA.
Then again, the tantras say we are all related and have been each others mothers, borthers, fathers, sisters, lovers, husbands, wives, over and over thousands of times already throuygh many incarnations, so…
The planet is groaning with people enough as it is, a lot of’em don’t have parents already, and I don’t think the “soul” resides in the genes…. something to be said for adoption too.
Anyway, having a kid - or raising and teaching a little one… is a part of the human experience I owuldn’t want to miss out on. WHo knows? There may be some Cambodian or Ukranian kid out there who could really benefit from being raised by Rev. Illuminatus Maximus and his stunning consort.
Also, I want an excuse to start buying the entire library of Dr. Suess books.
October 5th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Have you heard about Mike Judge’s new movie (that’s being held back by the studio for what will be obvious reasons)?:
This ties in, as the movie is based on a short story in which the unwashed masses breed uncontrollably while the educated elite refrain from so doing. Billmon gives an awesome summary of the whole deal here.
I’ve actually read the story, and it’s pretty danged hilarious (for a genocidal fantasy).
October 6th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
That’s awesome unthinkable! I think that was exactly the sentiment I was looking for. Totally summed up in a single line. Thanks!
October 7th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
I had to think about it. My responce is summed up between two qoutes.
AND
That’s why I’d have kids. A lot of kids. More kids then my no doubt crummy job will comfertably allow me to support. Then I’ll adopt some. My plan is to be Hal from Malcom in the Middle, for better or worse. And for the second one, that’s why I havn’t iced myself. That’s why I won’t. Because I have do goals: 1) Achive (or attain or whatever) gnossis, 2) help as many others to
That’s kind of why I was sitting at lunch with those people, a group made up of football players and their assorted female posse. They’re intelligent people, but they don’t think about anything that matters, just how to sneak out and get baked once season’s over. So I, in my own sublte way, slowly am trying to work them into a deeper understanding of the universe. In a way, they are like my children. I’m thrying to give them the upbringing their parents and society can’t. So when they have high-paying jobs, they fight for the system, so they know what’s right and wrong, so they don’t elect one of the Bish twins into the White House. You might not know just how fucked up generation Y is. We make generation X look like a generation with a purpose and a goal beyond self-gratification. You had Kurt Cobain. We have Panic! At the Disco. So we need people like me, who know the score on life the universe and everything, who know that 6 times nine is forty-two, to guide a few of us to the part we’re going to play in society. And, once we’re there, to reproduce so thatwe don’t just have a bunch of brainwashed Jesus camp graduates and ‘lil atheist scientists yelling at each other. That felt good to get off my chest.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:56 am
uh i have 3 boys, ages 2, 3, and 4. all i know is if they want to go in the army they should be an officer.
I look forward to providing my rather non-mainstream point of view to them, they look up to me, and it seems to work. I recommend having kids to anyone out there.
-tc