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Karmic Debt
As of a couple days ago, I managed to pay off all my debts for the first time since I started accumulating them in my year at college and thereafter. I guess it’s taken me about seven years to do it in full between that and my credit cards. It’s not that it was a huge amount of money or anything, but the fact that I have finally paid them off feels very significant to me.
I’ve been thinking about it as a more concrete form of karma, in a lot of ways. That is, that debts simply represent the decisions which you have made in the past and which have put you onto the path which you are on right now. For myself, I guess I am beginning to feel like the decisions I have made in the past which have hindered me are now being cleared up, and that I am now at an important decision point about what comes next. Not just financially, but in terms of what I want and what I am supposed to be doing. Money has everything to do with energy and what is it that I am going to now commit my energy towards?
I have a few ideas which I will likely be sharing over the course of the coming weeks as I hammer my life into a shape which makes use of my newfound opportunities in the fullest way possible. In any case, I think the subject of debt is a pretty interesting one when considered metaphysically, especially since so many of us are so deeply in debt. Does it weigh on you on a regular basis? Do you struggle with it a lot? Do you think you’ll ever have it paid off? What will you do when you have that opportunity?
October 28th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Debt is an abstract concept that does not exist in reality.
Money also is.
Money has no value.
If you burn a hundred dollar bill you will get only a slight fraction of a therm. In a future system if energy accounting is used , money would be considered a very odd throw back to the past, as it measures nothing real.
Money is a control mechanism to constrain people with in a price system. Money is the method to keep a class or caste system.
Because people use money to make decisions by , most decisions are wrongly made , as the object in this type of system is always to end up with more money.
As resources become destroyed, money becomes the worst possible arbiter of decision making.
In a good society money would not be used. Choices would be based on real concerns. Technology has made it possible to finally have a good society in the present circumstances without using money.
Because we think that issues can be resolved in a money system we never get at the underlying causes of most issues, most times that is the price system itself.
In a good society housing, education , medical care, and yes everything would be free , including food.
A good society would be completely nonprofit. What benefits one would benefit all and what benefits all would benefit one. Sustainable abundance would be based on the resource base , and what makes sense, to not destroy the environment.
Money far from being a liberating concept is an enslaving one. Nearly anyone will do almost anything , if enough money is offered.
Money is a club that is poised over most peoples heads. It is now a barbaric throwback.
Many people think the term Modernity , when applied to our present culture is so outrageously off the mark, as to be comical.
October 28th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
Cut & burnt my credit card, got out of debt, value every monetary transaction in terms of my life energy and time i spend at work to earn that money(work 2 hours to earn $ 20 to have $12 in hand to spend after taxes)
Am forced to rent but prefer it over a mortgage(”death-pledge”)
See:
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/OriginalArticles/DebtSlavery.html
October 28th, 2006 at 8:55 pm
I completely agree with Skip. I work my ass off for a living painting houses and somehow i am always short of money…….always. Even though my income should (on paper) be enough…or more. Just recently read Rich Dad Poor Dad and The millionare mind. Both books about how millionaires think and how they operate. I find these books pretty disturbing with the way they break down people into classes and how they view other people.. The message in both of these books is pretty much the same. Their Idea of money is completely different than mine, and It occurred to me that the idea of money is something that is conditionable and may be in the unconcious. Hasf anyone else has read these or any other books about gaining wealth and if there is another way to view it or go about it. I am totally punting….. Keep up the good work T. Thanks
October 29th, 2006 at 4:21 am
I wouldn’t take ‘rich dad’ too strongly, one way or the other. The level of truth in the anecdotes has been pretty heavily disputed, and Kiyosaki’s pretty much changed his story to suggesting that the rich dad is just fictional as of the February 2003 issue of SmartMoney. Though fiction or non-fiction, I’d tie the issue in with my own take on debt - whatever gives any particular individual the greatest amount of freedom. Million and one ways to define and change that view, and if it works for anyone, I’m not about to tell them that their idea of freedom is less right than mine.
October 29th, 2006 at 8:52 am
“Your Money or your Life” is a better bet than Kiyosaki:
http://www.simpleliving.net/olsg/olsg_ymoyl_summary.asp
http://www.simpleliving.net/audio/ttyrwm-sample.asp
October 29th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Great site. I stop by and read every so often, and it never fails to entertain/inform.
As for the questions posed by the author of the blog, I am in complete agreement with the karma/monetary debt analogy. So many of my past mistakes have determined my current condition–be they financial, physical (not working out and dieting when I could have), relational, etc. Each I am still paying off by overcompensating (working near 60 hr/wk, working out each day, serious dieting rather making wise daily eating decisions, and working extra hard on maintaining friendships).
I applaud you for getting your debts settled, Tim. I will be there one day soon. Being in heavy debt and working your way out makes you think twice about financial decisions concerning credit. Now if I want something bad enough, I work and save instead of taking the easy route and putting it on a Visa.
On a side note, my brother (whose IQ is 112 w/a B.A. ) has been warped by books like “Rich Dad, Poor Dad”. He has no interest in work and is always trying to find some get-rich-quick scheme (usually some pyramid deal). Is there any way to break the hold these things have on his mind? I’m afraid he’ll be leeching off my parents or the State for the rest of his life.
October 29th, 2006 at 8:32 pm
The current monetary system is a slavery, a scam. It is really good for the money lenders ,who are the few riches, if you equate your monetary debt with your karmic debt. Who determines your karma and who are you paying to? Bankers?
When you finish paying your debt next one comes up sooner or later. It is
inevitable unless we make a better system.
Money is the most important thing for most of us and it is tightly controlled and it is getting tighter and tighter every minute. It is getting very difficult for people to just stay alive. I encourage you to watch the movie “America Freedom to Fascism”. It is free to watch at
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198
The director’s interview is also good.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doci...3254488777215293198&q=Aaron+Russo
October 29th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
You know, it’s all well and good to go on about how money and debt are false and it amounts to slavery, yadda yadda. And while I certainly agree, I don’t personally find a lot of practical value in these types of arguments.
I think TW raised a good point above about how maybe - like everything - we can personally re-engineer our attitudes towards money into ones which are not so enslaving.
What I’m saying is basically this: for everyone who talks about how bad money is, how corrupt and enslaving debt, mortgages and the price system are, how do you get by without money in your life?
….
What? No answer? You still use money?
That’s what I thought.
Now answer me a better question: how do you reconcile your beliefs that money is so bad and imaginary with the fact that you use it all the time and are as responsible for what happens with it as everyone else?
That is: how are you making your life consonant with your beliefs about money? What steps are you taking? We can go on and on about how bad money is, but if we can’t talk about how to move past it and how to re-engineer our attitudes towards it, then we won’t get anywhere useful
October 29th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
You know it’s interesting, I don’t make a lot of money, but I certainly had enough that I didn’t have to stress about budgeting every month….. when my roommate moved out I was actually looking forward to having LESS money. I used to think of it as the thing I never had enough of, but these days I think of it as the structure that forces me to discipline my life.
I don’t think that money is the bad thing…. human selfishness is the bad thing. Money is only a symptom of that. As long as I don’t have an option in the matter, I choose to be opportunistic, and think of money as an aid to self improvement. Hopefully one day it will no longer have such an influence on my life.
October 29th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
That’s the reason I am a social activist Tim and promote Technocracy. We do have a plan.
I think it is important to blow the whistle on the current system.
I do believe that the current system will destroy the world , for no particularly good reason , except to make money.
The system I advocate gets rid of the current system.
If our system is adopted , which it may be as this system becomes more and more dysfunctional , then Tim , that would be a very concrete example of a good social change into a system of sustainable abundance.
There is a window of time to do this , and that window will close in the future if we continue to destroy our resource base.
It is not a question of how you get by without money in your life Tim , it is a question how much better our lives would be with a creative culture, not based on money.
Sadly , we do live in a price system, and that means that we have to adapt to it to survive .
That does not mean its flaws can not be pointed out , and other plans be thought out for a better, more sustainable future, where the motto is,
What is good for me , is also good for everyone, what is good for everyone is also good for me.
That would be a good , practical, sensible , humanitarian society, and that is the kind of good society that we desperately need now.
The present society leads to death and destruction . Our whole economy has been war based since world war two.
Why.?
To make money, something we no longer need to make. Fact is it is money that makes our class and caste system.
That is an antique also.
October 29th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
what if what you saw most clearly always became your reality?
this question includes money, it`s philosphical and metaphorical meanings etc. money, in our reality, the way we all agree it should operate still is the thing that we use to get food, fuel and shelter and all the good stuff on top of that.
maybe we are all just slaves to a certain way of thinking that binds us to limiting outcomes.
good question tim, and good steerage throughout the replies. i think the question of belief about wealth is critical to attaining it. i seriously doubt there are any hesitant millionaires out there, uncertain about how to build businesses and deliver products and deal with employees and run meetings. you generally find those traits in store clerks……………
the store clerk can change thier position by changing thier beliefs. a store clerk will not last too long behind the counter if he believes that he can do more. if he wakes up in the morning with a burning desire to be a teacher or fly jets then that will happen if he continues thinking that long enough to take the next step.
i think that`s what happened to bill gates and sam walton and aristotle onasiss. they saw different pictures than the guy who`s still a store clerk.
October 29th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
skip, i see your point, but even without money people will fail because they wont see thier creative vision so we will be back to some form of hierachy based on value and exchange. money is only a symbol of effort in producing things. the visionary and the creative will continue to see and to create no matter what type of socio-political badge you put on things.
http://www.abraham-hicks.com/
maybe this might clarify my point about seeing.
the movie “the secret” pretty much nails it on the head also.
October 29th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
The site and concept there, kind of remind me of the old , Every day in every way I am getting better, concept. It`s sweet I guess , that site alistair.
I guess Alistair , I would have to say that you view humans in a more intrinsicly negative way than I do. I don`t mean to imply that people and human nature need changing. It doesn`t .
Just the operating system. Then the players change a bit.
Our program does not care what people think , and does not desire to change human nature. It is not a Utopia type of an idea.
October 31st, 2006 at 12:11 am
Well that’s symptomatic of the problem I am seeing lately, and I myself am as much a part of the problem as anyone else. We think that because we have a plan that that means we are doing something.
IT DOESN’T. WE AREN’T DOING DICK!
Myself included - hell, maybe more than anybody, since I tend to toot my own horn so much. I mean, we can sit around and lie to each other about it all we want. But we’re *just* talking to people online. It might make us feel better, but what have we really changed?
Have we ended war? Have we exposed criminals in high places? Have we taken down the price system? No - we have made some nice friends and had some really exciting conversations.
And the thing is… what if that’s enough? I think that may be a component to what Alistair is saying: that if we can realize what we need to change may simply be ourselves, when then maybe from that power base can we really spread that change in the world by catching fire to those around us.
So freakin what! You’re gonna replace one system with another system? Who the hell cares! How many times has that been tried in history? A million? One system replaces the other system replaces the other… Ad infinitum. The answer is that systems won’t save us. We have to do the hard work ourselves *on* our SELVES. Everything else is projection.
I’ve been thinking about money a lot lately thanks to this conversation and the thing I realized is: I don’t fucking understand what money is. I don’t understand why we have it, why we need it or how we could change it to make our lives better. But I know my life right now - in this actual world - is being made incrementally better by me doing the hard work necessary to account for the financial costs of decisions which I have made previously. That’s all I know. From there, maybe I can move onward and figure out what the next step is for me and money… It’s almost impossible for me to see.
Been very curious to explore some of Rushkoff’s ideas from the video: money as a form of media, and open-source systems of currency. But those ideas will be useless unless I, me, myself, can apply them to my current real life right now.
THAT’s the point I’m trying to make.
Sorry if I am ranting! It’s getting late and I am riled up. Nothing personal!
October 31st, 2006 at 4:58 am
someone has to try to change systems……………..that`s what tests the ones that are in place now. having said that, the only thing that can be effectively changed is the self. as soon as you accomplish some meaningful change in the self then everything changes around you.
the abraham-hicks writings, while esoteric and supposedly chanelled from an entity, still have a basis in fundimental personal growth, the only place where change can occur.
personally, i think political and economic systems are more a product of our nervous systems than our desire to want change……….otherwise we would have solved homelessness, poverty, disease, etc. these are artifacts of our own personal decisions.
money as a form of media? absolutely………delightfully mcluhanesque, but valid. like all media it becomes plastic in the hands of an artist, a solid to the craftsman and a tool for the technocrat.
“we” can never just get along……..but the individual can resist or encourage conflict.
in terms of applying concepts in your own life tim……………the questions i ask when i am discplined enough to ask myself is; are the pictures i`m showing myself taking me where i want to go? are they allowing me the ability to choose good feelings for no reason, or are they barriers to my happiness? am i aware enough of my own nervous system to be able to tell the difference?
oh yes, and who is in control of the pictures?
October 31st, 2006 at 9:47 am
Interesting,
good points Alistair .
We do have to change,
and although religious systems have changed , many times in the last few millenia , our basic price system, has remained similar as to the big picture, as we use the larger template, as to the Babylonian or Mesopotamian ideas of law and money.
You like everyone else is frustrated Tim . Our system pits us against each other instead of for each other.
Ultimately Technocracy is a personal liberation tool for me.
It fits with the other things I discovered from studying religion , history etc.
It may be the only thing that will work in a broader sense to save us from the larger destruction that our price system brings.
Because this system has no values and is based mostly on belief , the wrong choices pile up, and threaten us.
A thread runs through out our program , that we do not care what people do, and are not trying to change people. We want to change the template of society , so that bad behavior is not rewarded as it is now. Our society now is based on to many false values, and that Tim is why things hardly ever work out. By changing the Rules of the Game , peoples actions will change.
A good system is one that benefits all equally. Our program does that. If one benefits all benefit, if all benefit one benefits.
Money , the concept of money , what it actually is , how it works, what it is designed to do are things , that are hashed out pretty well in the study of Technocracy. Our original Technocracy Study Course covers this pretty well , about as well as it can be covered I think.
There is a chapter called , What is Technocracy ?— concept and organization –
I replicate this chapter word for word in my book from the study course. So it can either be gotten out of my book or in the original study course.
Both are free.
As said this gets into the specifics of how money actually works , and what effects it has on society.
Ha Ha , I am not a champion of lost causes , and I would not be doing what I am doing if I thought it was an exercise in futility.
To me it is a way out, and off the merry go round.
A lot of new attention is coming to our program in the last year or two. This has been very positive as to the number of people and the interest.
Because we have a long history , and a pretty constant message , there are many Technocrats out there.
Our program sounds more and more interesting as our system cascades out of control , and seems more and more anti-human.
Of course all change starts with the self.
The most important things , each person must do for themselves.
Each of us is ultimately alone.
We must live within the ambiguity of partial freedom, partial power, and partial knowledge. Yet we are responsible for everything we do.
No excuses will be accepted.
The world is not necessarily just. Being good often does not payoff and there is no compensation for misfortune. You have a responsibility to do your best nonetheless.
October 31st, 2006 at 9:37 pm
No system will save us.
October 31st, 2006 at 10:39 pm
Didn`t say it would, but it would sure go a long way toward that .
I think you took that out of context Tim.
Or made your own context , which is fine , not mine though.
Yet no excuses will be accepted. We are responsible for everything we do.
November 1st, 2006 at 12:58 am
No it won’t. I think this is something we need to have absolute clarity on.
November 1st, 2006 at 10:34 am
Tim , the current system is destroying the world for no particular reason , but to make money. Most jobs that people go to such as banking, insurance, health care bureaucracy etc. , are pointless and only waste resources of time and energy.
Many people feel the dehumanizing aspect of living in a culture that does not value its youth. Young people know that they are looked at as economic pawns now , that will be tossed in a heart beat if $ 1.00 can be saved.
Our present system is predicated on a class or caste system.
There is no real connection between work and reward in the ancient sense now since the rise of the machine.
We should be in a play culture that values our precious environment. We aren`t though because the power possessors , not out of conspiracy , but out of lack of understanding , and caring , want to stick with a dysfunctional system.
In a good system Tim, people are not rewarded for bad actions as they are now.
As far as a system saving us , or not, I don`t know where you are going with that.
Obviously some systems are better than others as to human rights, protections of the environment , and so on.
Can humans be saved.?
That may be an existential question that belongs into another type of format other than this thread.
It could be suggested , and I will, that humans do not need saving , and that they are perfectly fine as is, believing and acting as they will.
Our program is not interested in changing human nature.
That is unrealistic , and impossible. We just want to dicker a bit with the overall template to improve some really basic things like overall societal perspective. Our present system will destroy us in its lack of realistic values.
However , in a better system , where the Rules of the Game are altered a bit , it would make for better players in the sense that the , mans inhumanity to man , factor does not have to be as great as it is now.