![[tmbchr]™](/journal/popocculture-blog-logo.jpg){kind=logo}
On Sharing Chocolate Bars
For the past several days, I have been mulling over in the back of my mind a post over on a blog called “Living In A Van Down By The River,” which seems to be the chronicle of one person’s attempt at living outside the system (found via Ran Prieur). And, appropriately, they are living in a van. I’m not sure if this author would necessarily call themselves a primitivist, per se, but the content definitely has that edge to it.
Anyway, the post that intrigued me and which I’ve been turning over again and again in my mind is called Good, Sound Tribal Behavior, and chronicles the author’s experience waiting outside of an organization of some kind that gives out free food, mostly to homeless people it seems. The author notes that some of the other people waiting are very helpful towards a woman, giving her all kinds of free advice on how and where to survive in that area as a homeless person. One of the people even offered another a sandwich while they were waiting. And the author writes:
When I saw him offer the tuna salad, I thought about the chocolate bars I had in my own bag. Earlier, when I was at the Salvation Army, they were giving away large chocolate bars which had gone out of date. I wondered if I would so freely give away one of the chocolate bars that I had picked up. And, to my surprise, the answer was “no.” I felt like I needed to save what I had because I would be hungry in the future.
I sat and thought about it for a minute while I waited, and I pictured one of these nine people asking me for one of my chocolate bars, and, to my surprise, my answer had become “yes.” Just in those few minutes I had learned that it is more helpful to share with those who would share back, than it is to stockpile.
The author, unfortunately, never reveals whether or not they decided to go ahead and give the woman the chocolate bars. Instead, they derive from this a lesson about what kind of behavior will outlast “civilization”:
I have long suspected that one of the groups of humans who stand a better chance than most of us at outliving the collapse are homeless people. They are already surviving outside the dominant heirarchical structures. They are the least dependent on those structures of any of us. I’ll bet they are already the most adept at the sharing of resources and information that is crucial to navigating the collapse.
What I witnessed was good, sound, tribal behavior, and I’m glad to have learned a little something from it.
The reason I have been thinking about this so much I think is that it ends in a sort of tautology. The conclusion we are left with is, essentially, that homeless people are better at being homeless. And then an extrapolation: if we become homeless, we could learn from them. Certainly that’s true. But wouldn’t it also be true to say that carpenters are better at carpentry than most folks, and if we wanted to build a cabin in a hurry, we’d better look towards them for inspiration?
I’m not saying, by any means, that this person’s conclusions aren’t valid. I guess for me, they just don’t really reveal any new or useful information. But nestled within the story is a much more interesting and regrettably unsolved moral dilemma though: whether or not to give the woman the chocolate bars.
I went through something similar a few days ago with a stranger at a bus stop (which I think I will podcast about rather than trying to capture in writing), and this is why I think I finally figured out how to unpack this story - at least for myself - from the van blogger. The issues surrounding the chocolate bar seem to be something like: wanting to be a good person, but also feeling like you need to look out for yourself. The struggle about just how much of yourself it is appropriate to give away to other people, especially those in need. And I feel like there’s also this element of almost feeling like shamed or guilted into wanting to give away the chocolate bars, after seeing how other people are behaving in such an open fashion, and being unable or unwilling to do so oneself.
I’m drawing on this example not to pick on the blogger who authored it, so much as because it seems like a very archetypal moral dilemma of our times. How much do you help somebody else out? Why should you help them out? Can you do it because you feel like you “should” or because you feel guilty or is helping people out somehow tainted by those feelings? What does it really even mean to be selfless?
These questions I have been grappling with a whole lot lately, and I thought I’d post this as another link in the chain of a developing conversation on these topics. Will have more to say on these subjects in the coming days and weeks, and will also include my own similar bus stop story - even though I’m kind of embarrassed of it - into my next podcast.
- Gregory David Roberts Video
- But see… you go to a bar to get drunk…
- M&M’s Company to Make Medicine
- Texas Arrests Drunks in Bars
- You heard it here first
- Prev: Texas Border Watch Website
- Next: Threading Together
November 6th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
When I was back in school I took a class on homelessness which really blew my head off… it made me realize how ingrained and unconscious my “views” or “beliefs” about homeless people were.
The kicker, though, is how even more engrained is my automated response to homeless people seems to be, especially when they catch me off guard. Of course, I’m talking about the head-shaking “No,” followed by some rationalization in my head of why I’m not helping them (while I quickly scurry away).
However, in the past several years, most of the time I’ve helped out homeless people (with change or a buck or two) involves me doing a double-take. That is, they’ll catch me off guard, I’ll say “no,” keep on walking, but then stop and turn around. It has been a great passion of mine to then ask them for wisdom, try to get into a real conversation, etc… aka, be human. It isn’t easy, and I certainly don’t get to it all of the time (or even often), but I try.
Additionally, it is quite remarkable to witness the attitude of various friends I’ve been with while engaging with homeless folk… they’ve often freaked out, tried to “rescue” me, or later convince me “it’s a scam.” Striving for a human moment? Yeah, a big scam.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
the chocolate bar issue can be dealt with by looking at your own attachment to it. if you believe it`s your last one and that it`s difficult to get another, then you`ll have a harder time giving it to someone else. if on the other hand you are confident in the abundance of stuff in the other stuff we call the universe then you can pass the chocolate bar along knowing you`ll always have more.
it`s all stuff. whether it`s exernal or internal stuff. we create it all with our perspective on things.
what make`s a person homeless vs. merely outside?
i am without a home now, as my ex sold ours. i live with friends for now and see clients as i can and i`m looking for accomodation where i can live and see clients also. the search has led me to new opportunities in business and new clients and my “homeless” state is merely temporary.
it`s a matter of perspective.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Just as an aside, not all homeless people hang out and excel at living in a van. Many of the homeless are by there by default. A great deal of them are mentally ill, have substance abuse problems, and have been in and out of the revolving door of the prison-industrial-complex (due to state psychiatric hospitals cutting funding in the 70s and shutting down). So, to get back to your point - there is a moral dilemma both on an individual level and on a societal one. We’ve done a lot to screw over certain people that deviate from the norm in a multiplicity of ways. I’m not nostalgically gazing to the good ol’days of the asylum, but I feel that we should all feel responsible for the welfare of others - (maybe a new and improved system - like Renaissance Geel in Belgium) even if I have to give up my metaphorical “chocolate bar” (money, time, various aspects of affluence). I just see it as a karmic debt that needs to be paid - which for me cancels out the whole idea of selflessness anyway. Giving up my chocolate bar/aka paying off my karmic debt, is part of a larger social ecology.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
thank you for posting the link to that blog.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
There is no real reason for any person to be homeless in a good society.
Our society with our price system encourages hoarding , as we know that if the money runs out we are going to starve or have to steal.
Technocracy deals with the problems of a society , such as housing, food , shelter, and so forth as a right of citizenship, and not as a moral calculator.
As our society spins out of control and becomes more dysfunctional and more anti-human a cry goes out for a culture that meets the needs of society now.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Skip, but what about the chocolate bars? That’s really what’s important here - not homelessness.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
One thing I noticed working with people who were homeless was how generosity actually backfired on most of them. Because most of them didn’t have the skills to manage money or assets when one of them got some money or a place to stay they would want to help out their circle and in doing so make a loan to or pick a roommate who had no pattern of being relialble also as far as paying bills or a debt back. By helping each other they actually ended up not helping anyone. It’s no secret alot of rich people are very cheap and tightfisted, when I worked for greenpeace we did the best in middle income neighborhoods, go to a rich area and if you couldn’t even get one to write a check they’d give you a check for $5, while the middle income folks were always good for $20-$45.
Related to the generosity thing, I heard (I don’t know how true, but sounds plausible) a big donut chain like dunkin donuts started opening on indian reservations but ended up pulling out because they couldn’t make a profit. Problem was because of so many extended relations employees would give away too many donuts to their friends and family.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:45 pm
Interesting personal observations, definitely. Also interesting about the donut thing as well… Makes me see the sort of dichotomy between profit and generosity a little clearer.
November 6th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Chocolate bars are not an issue in a system of abundance.
In our system chocolate bars might mean the difference between life and death , or at least seem like they do. This reality would nag at any one , that wants to share.
In a system like this a feeling of everything for me and nothing for you will always be popular. This is because of the rules of the games of this type of society in which people are rewarded for bad behaviour.
We can moralize and preach at people to share their chocolate , but if they are not rewarded for doing do it is to no avail.
Reality of survival in a group would tell us that sharing is the way to go. We are very lucky that in this place on earth we have things to share.
This person came to the higher truth of that sentiment in his story. It makes sense to follow a pattern of people sharing and surviving together , rather than fighting each other day in day out for no really good reason other than false society norms which are what our present culture is based on.
Norms that just don`t translate to the modern world we live in now. We are using horse and buggy societal concepts to manage our society.
November 6th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
But what about in ordinary human life that doesn’t relate to terms like “abundance” or “price system”
What I am getting at, I guess is: would you have shared your chocolate bar?
November 6th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
In interacting with the homeless/panhandler, for the most part simple eye contact, a smile, and a sentence “Sorry man, I can’t spare anything today …” is payment enough. The value here is seeing that person as a person - something many homeless (and as pointed out many having mental illness), rarely experience from the ‘real world.’ It’s rare not to receive pleasant acknowledgement from the asker.
Of course a little monetary generosity is good too, but rather than give the person more than spare change, I prefer to support the people and services that contribute to the needs of the homeless.
For me this all comes out of Jesus’ teaching “Give to all who ask …”, and the “FLOW” of goods and life to all around us; not holding on (attachment) to what we have (ultimately we nothing is really “ours” and ownership is an illusion in the biggest scheme of things).
The FLOW is a current that runs through Jesus’ ministry. His miracles of multiplication result from the physical pouring, e.g. loaves and fishes, water into wine, etc. and is analogous to the activity of giving, allowing our own “living water” to flow to others. Rather than keeping it bottled up in stasis, we then get replenishment via the holy spirit, of those heavenly living waters, i.e. non-material blessing.
I enjoy seeing this as a great ’spiritual’ circle of life. But to “give away what is freely given …” is completely counter to a materialistic mindset , unless one is expecting an owed return favor.
November 6th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
I like that sentiment Whatacharachter .
Tim no one really knows what they will do until in any given situation.
Would I have shared my chocolate bar.? I hope so. I think so.
The part of the story I like is the epiphany that it is the course to follow for the whole bunch of us.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:33 am
I think it’s more of an issue of those you perceive outside of yourself rather than one of abundance.
I mean, take the same scenario, but replace the homeless people with your family. Would you have a problem sharing it then? Or replace them with your friends. You may have a bit more hesitation with friends than with family, but you’d still be more likely to share.
Homeless people are just outside of most of our circles, “Other,” and we’re a lot less likely to do a lot of things with them than we would with those that are inside of our circles.
November 7th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
Darkshadow, that is a really excellent way of looking at it. Reminds me of my piece on the ecology of the self, as well as the concentric rings which encircle the self in both Scientology’s eight dynamics and the zones of permaculture (which I am meaning to do a piece on very soon comparing the two)
Maybe what the author of this blog meant by “good tribal behavior” could be thought of as an inversion of the zones/dynamics and treating everyone as though they are your family.
November 7th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
I had an interesting education myself on this one. Some friends and I went to berkeley on weekend when we I was around nineteen, we planned to spend a night inn the woods with psychadelics and then head home on the bus the next day, but our friend had a now legendary bad trip* and by the end of the first night, all of our money and belongings were gone (along with my shoes). Long story short, we ended up camping out witht he local homeless population, and just like this guy, we were very surprised how easily they shared things- I remember giving a man a couple cigarettes, and he passed one on right away. They found us blankets, even gave me some shoes to wear until we had scrounged up enough money to get home the next day. There was more community there than I’ve seen anywhere else since.
The downside was realizing how outright nasty people could be, when the cops showed up at four am and beat everyone awake with nightsticks- just for the hell of it.
November 10th, 2006 at 12:12 am
cops are such a fun bunch………