![[tmbchr]™](/journal/popocculture-blog-logo.jpg){kind=logo}
Beneath the Burqa Ban
Just heard on the radio that the Dutch are about to enact one of the strictest bans in Europe against the Muslim women’s garment,the burqa. This, of course, comes from a country with extremely liberal policies towards things like marijuana and prostitution. According to the Times Online article about it, the official reason for the ban will be something like this:
Attention has turned to the burka because police authorities have become concerned that a terrorist could use one for concealment.
A government spokesman said: “We want to investigate when, how, in which places the burka should be banned. It is a safety measure — you don’t see who is in it.” The Government cites as a precedent existing football legislation, which bans people from entering football grounds covering their faces in scarves.
About what you’d expect, right? And I know personally I have noticed that in convenience stores and gas stations in seedy neighborhoods, they will often have a sign on the doorway saying its illegal to wear a garment that covers your head. The idea is that it will prevent people from being able to rob them anonymously. How well these signs - and bans - work, I have no idea.
But thinking about it further, I have “uncovered” what I think is the real threat that European societies seem to feel from the burqa. In the West, it seems that we hold the right to express one’s individuality as of paramount importance. We want to be seen as individuals, and respected as individuals. The Western mind is frankly terrified of cultures which recognize that in life there are perhaps more important things than individual expression.
And so, allowing women to walk around in full-body and face covering burqas becomes a threat. Not a terrorist threat though, like they are saying, but a threat to the cultural hegemony of the cult of individuality. Because that’s all it is: a cult. It is one out of a multiplicity of ways of being human which for various reasons our modernist technocratic has enshrined as the one true way of being: mainly because the other myths of democracy and consumerism rest so firmly upon the ground of the myth of the importance of the individual. “One vote makes a difference.” You can control how others see and treat you by purchasing a costume which broadcasts your cultural identity. Without the underpinning of individuality being more important than anything else, these sub-systems wither away into nothing. And yet, what we believe to be our individuality is nothing more usually than a kind of groupthink: we want to be different by ultimately being like everyone else: different but not TOO different. We want to be seen as different but not seen as strange.
For how many of us want to be anonymous online, few of us think to do it in real life. What if all of us started wearing burqas or something similar as well? What if we did it as a symbol of our recognition that individuality is not our most important quality, but that our humanity is? Our culture might rightly see that as a threat as well…
- Enclaved States
- Burqa & Bagism
- Burqa Bagism
- Media ban on the caskets of returning soldiers
- Tamagotchi Communist Education
- Prev: A Broken Spirit
- Next: The New Worker Aesthetic
November 17th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
Very interesting perspective… linking to this on my LJ.
November 17th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
I think you have really put your finger on somthing. You could probably walk around Amsterdam in a Thong carrying a big Dildo and that would be fine, but a burka is disruptive.
I think Islam is a threat to the working out of a lot of enlightenment ideas that have really taken hold in the west. The ideas that turn us into a bunch of isolated consumers each with his seprate “lifestyle choice”
Amish people are coming up against problems with Homeland security because they don’t like being photographed. Similar dynamic.
Not a big consumer market there, either, with the Amish.
November 17th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
To put it in perspective, this is part of a political campain, take it with a grain of salt. It’s a proposal done by a minister who feeds on the growing fear for islam here in Holland.
November 17th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Absolutely, shunning individuality is the only TRUE terrorism. And if you look at what a suicide bomber is too: a suicide bomber isn’t someone with no concern for the lives of others, he is someone who has no concern for his own life, because he serves a higher purpose. There can be no such higher purpose - especially not an invisible one - in a society built on Enlightenment ideals.
Interesting about the Amish vs. Homeland Security! Not surprising though. You have any links on that?
The whole thing taken together paints a very strong picture of how to “unravel” the power of Empire. Same way as ever:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10:21
November 17th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
Well, yeah, I mean… of course its a political campaign and it feeds on fear. That goes without saying, doesn’t it? I think you may be taking it with far too many grains of salt. This is hardly an isolated incident so much as it is a broad-sweeping trend across supposedly “liberal” Europe. We can’t just throw up our hands and say, “Oh it’s just politics!” when there are obviously deep roots growing here.
November 17th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
I consider it a conflict between collective beliefs systems. It is a conflict that the belief systems entice the humans to wage war on each other over. Collective beliefs enticing humans to go against other humans that have conflicting beliefs. The leaders in this war are the conceptual ideas, and the people do the fighting for them. Sometimes they become human sacrifices for conceptual ideas called ideology.
It’s like those conceptual ideas are the gods and the humans are the slaves. Much in the same way that a predator captures and keeps it’s prey. (Going back to your Active Side of Infinity quote.)
Gary
http://www.pathwaytohappiness.com
November 17th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Yes, I follow what you’re saying
November 18th, 2006 at 9:00 am
The Dutch are some of the freest minded people on earth. I think they were smart to ban this annoying clothing . It flaunts repressive religious dogma . The Dutch are waking up perhaps. They don`t allow genital mutilation either. Good for them. Why molly coddle a bunch of religious dissemblers.?
November 18th, 2006 at 9:42 am
@ skip sievert: believe me, the dutch are not as liberal minded as they would like you to think.
@Tim Boucher: Your right, it (fear of islam) is catching on all over Europe.
November 18th, 2006 at 10:04 am
organisations, corporations and governments begin to react more and more like an individual (monolithic.) when under threat. i don`t think that it`s any more complex than associating burkas with explosions in public places.
the amish are allowed thier idiosycracies by the greater society that surrounds them. they should have a meeting of the elders and grow up regarding the photo thing…….
religious and spiritual respect is a two way street.
the dutch? well, one only has to look to south africa to see another side of them.
my point here is that the west is actually under a threat from the muslim ideology, not just from terrorism, but from assimilation of our culture. countries like france, germany and holland are the canary-in-a-coalmine in this regard. it`s not politically correct to point this out, but the fact remains………anglo-saxons are under siege genetically.
the burkas and the explosions are a political strike group that says, hey, let us in to begin breeding you out………………the church has always been sensitive to this because they have traditionally been the repository of the genetic line of society.
November 18th, 2006 at 11:59 am
I don`t know alistair , it would seem that we are more of a threat to them right now than them us.
We just have our own brand of crackpot beliefs , and neither set of them are reality based, so it is true that a fight over pointless belief systems is occurring.
If the west was truly frightened as your saying , they would simply banish this group back to the middle east , as was done when the Jew and Arabs were kicked out of Spain at one time .
Aren`t you kind of buying into the muslims as terrorists concept here.?
It`s equally arguable that Christians are terrorists at base with their track record also.
These belief systems have proven to be nasty things , as they get tangled in politics and money.
The Dutch are really a pretty wild group . They themselves or at least some of them claim to be the freest people on earth. Having met them traveling I have to say they are a wild and expansive group.
All people are basically the same though , mostly just brainwashed differently with political and religious lies.
November 18th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Its definately an interesting phenomenon and several levels. I don’t have a link for the Amish issue I just know some people that know some people who Bus Amish people around on sight seeing trips. They take buses to see the Grand Canyon and things like that.
What I am seeing here is that various enlightenment ideals seem to break down. If you have a democratic society based on equality and individual expression of things like religion, people that don’t share those values are a threat eventually, but initially, they enjoy the freedom and equality. There is a threat of Muslims outbreeding the Europeans, it could happen with 50 years. First world people don’t have kids.
The thing is though the enlightenment weakened these types of behaviors the Muslims are now displaying, when these behaviors were associated with Europeans and Christianity. The Church was at one time much more powerful, just like Muslem clerics. The church regulated peoples sexual behavior, and there was more of a top down authoritarian group mindset.
Oddly enough, Really there is hardly anything out there in print right now that criticizes the enlightenment, not in any stuff I had been reading. I decided to study neo-conservatism and so Read “The Closing of the American Mind” by Allan Bloom. It really challenged my thinking in a lot of ways. Turns out The Straussians are actually pretty smart and have really deep insights about the world.
All the stuff I had read about them had been filtered by liberals that probably hadn’t read strauss either. Now I am trying to read Strauss, which is hard.
Its not that Bloom really was pushing any one ideology, he was just basically explaining how civilization works from Its inception in Athens and Jerusalem, what great thinkers have thought, what the choices are.
I feel like I haven’t had any of these philosophical choices because I am so ignorant. But there has been this bias oin everything I had been reading that is more left wing, that the enlightenment is the only game in town.
Actually though the Neo-cons aren’t against Liberal Democracy either, they just IMO, have a less naive view of the world. This might sound like blasphemy to a lot of people.
November 18th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
But, I mean, We could just as easily say its a good law, because it preserves our way of life. Ironically, that contradicts enlightenment thinking, but not Islamic thinking. There are inherent contradictions in Liberal democracies.
Basically though, in Liberal democracies, just like in the Muslim world only a few people hold the power. People living in Liberal democracies just theink they have a say in what goes on. Like all these people against the Iraq war.
Muslims just acknowledge they have authority over them. Liberal demcrats don’t. We are all equal, equally competant to lead, equally competant to decide whats right. But then we don’t have the tools in our droor to solve problems.
November 18th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
enlightenment is a luxury we have come to afford in a modern technological society. it goes out the window when bombs go of in starbucks.
now, i`m not mongering here……i`m merely pointing out that the people that are driving the terrorist bus are looking to export thier brand and don`t care where the market takes them. whether its oslo or rotterdam or london or new york city.
skip, i`d like for the balance of power to remain this way frankly. this conflict has been going on for centuries and i don`t feel like battling it out locally. we are more of a threat to them now.
imagine if we weren`t.
humans aren`t peace loving. history reveals this to be a consistant theme in human endevours. in fact history is a chronicle of war.
i am always suspicious of those selling peace anyway. they are either niave or hiding their true agenda.
November 18th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
It kills the Westerners to think that Muslim women actually choose to wear it. Only thing they want to believe is that women are forced to wear it by men.
Look at the countries like Turkey or Tunisia that government banned it and discourage it. But the Muslim women continue to wear it with big numbers. In the BBC news, they said 65% of the all women in Turkey wear veil.
Very, very small percentage of women are forced to wear it by men but nearly all women wear it because they choose to wear it.
We all know why they can’t ban the full Muslim veil or hijab because Nuns wear the same veil for the same reason.
Why is it when nuns wear veil, people consider them holy and pious but when Muslim women wear veil, people consider them ’submissive and oppressed’?
November 18th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
This is just show that Europeans have no tolerance and oppress women just as European accuses the Muslim of doing. Banning a woman to wear veil is same as forcing a women to wear veil, both are oppressive to women and violates women’s right. Congratulation Dutch people, you guys are just like Taliban.
This just show Europeans don’t care about Freedom, Democracy, Diversity, Torlance, Women’s Right, Religious’ Right, Minority’ Right, Human Rights. Next, time they preach those things, just laugh at them as jokes
November 18th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/chapter.aspx?g=401&i=41003
November 18th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Alistair:
No, I totally agree about not letting people photograph you. I might even argue that it can and does “steal your soul” in some sense. That’s what I was referring to here in another way:
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/11/15/the-metaphysics-of-media/
And let’s say that this is true for a moment. What does it matter at all if it is? Why should we cling to a bunch of chemicals and say that they are “us”?
Ted:
I think they probably become a threat when they stop assimilating into the dominant culture and retain too closely their individual ways, because it forces corporations to start running concurrent advertising and control schemes, when all they want is to have one master set of mechanisms that reaches everybody.
Absolutely: it’s sacrosanct to suggest that maybe Enlightenment values aren’t all there is to life. Oddly enough, I see this assumption questioned only in strange quarters: Fundamentalist Christians, some conspiracy theorists, some primitivists, some people in Ken Wilber’s Spiral Dynamics, etc
I think it hooks into conspiracy theory research right here:
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/07/26/the-illuminati-enlightenment/
Extremely good point, I think.
Tarikur:
Yes! You are absolutely right. Westerners don’t have as strong a grasp over this idea that you could willingly choose to limit yourself in certain ways. As a result, we are limited in all kinds of ways that we don’t understand consciously and rebel against because we aren’t able to examine the underlying contradictions.
Very good question!
Yes! I think you are absolutely right.
November 18th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
so why should we tear our own culture apart? the other folks seem to be quite happy to reassemble thier culture intact elsewhere and demand the right to do so. if we went to china or north korea or some of the arab countries and wanted our culture………….like a glass of scotch with our steak………we`d end up entertainment in the village square. try smoking a joint in some of these countries.
November 18th, 2006 at 8:31 pm
In what way is our culture being torn apart? I don’t see that at all.
Uh, isn’t this what *everyone* does? I mean look at the history of the West, first of all. It’s nothing *but* that exact thing. And American culture is certainly America’s primary export.
November 19th, 2006 at 1:49 am
american culture is being torn apart by apologists who were born and raised here and who, for whatever reason, haven`t got what they wanted and so are holding the entire american culture responsible for thier personal failures.
pretty much what is called a loser script.
americans find out pretty quickly that other cultures won`t tolerate thier beligerent americanisms and they get on with going native, unless they want t be ostricised socially. i think the worst crime most americans commit abroad is to wear american flags and baseball caps………though it is probably as strong a signal as a burka to people in foreign countries.
welcome to the end times.
November 19th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
What do you consider success in America alistair. Getting lots of money or being in a great relationship , or being involved in a community.? Or maybe being a famous sports star.?
Isn`t the -prophet of doom - site you posted little more than nasty propaganda with a dissembler slant as it seems to be pro-Jewish and anti-Arab , and uses all sorts of nasty diatribe issues to paint Muslims in the worse light possible , and Jews in a holey and holier than thou light , and as if they are the true religion.?
When people take sides for and against religion aren`t they exposing bigotry when they chose a side .
As someone who does not particularly like the vantage of Jews , Muslims, Christians and Hindu`s or other religious dissemblers , I find it comical that people pick sides on these mostly pointless belief systems.
Religion should perhaps be relegated where it belongs , in the belief system zone , and not meant to be taken seriously , by serious people.
Most religion is a kind of practical joke played on the gullibility of humans.
The Lord your god.? Ha Ha.
One good rule for humans is that , if there fist contacts another , then their freedom is confiscated. That’s simple enough.
November 19th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
You are free to do whatever you like ; you need only face the consequences. Your freedom stops at the end of your fist , if it makes contact with another.
November 19th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
This is something that calls for prayer, but understand this: Islam does not accept the separation of Church and State. I work in a major corporation and we had workshop led my Muslims. They made that Very. Clear.
No separation of Church and State.
Homosexuality to a sin.
A Muslim man may marry a Christian woman because the children are his. No Muslim woman may marry a Christian man unless he converts.
This is a clear case of a rock meeting a hard place. It could get ugly.
I believe Amsterdam is one of the most spiritually advanced countries on earth. It’s time we stop thinking of ourselves as “slaves of God” or “poor, miserable sinners.” Materialism and atheism are important acts of independence.
In any event, it’s an elementary belief of Gnostics that moral laws are relative; merely meant to stabilize personalities. Europe’s full of mentally healthy, well educated people. They must not be thrown off track.
November 19th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
i agree skip. i merely point out the mechanisms that are effecting our lives. the jewish point of view is only one of many fighting for supremacy on the face of the planet.
the prophet of doom points out some interesting things about mohammedism that aren`t commonly known, but no more than the popes or archbishops……………
what does success mean to me personally? free time to do what i want. to me it`s not about money necessarily other than that which feeds, clothes and shelters me and my children and allows me access to toys of creativity.
relationships and community are good measures of personal success also. i`m too old for professional sport.
the things that are most important to me money can`t buy anyway.
November 19th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
and a million dollars would be nice though, but not for the reasons you`d expect.
November 19th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Independence from what? I personally would seek independence from them!
November 19th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
The beauty of free speech and freedom of belief. Freedom from belief also. This is the guide of what a good culture is.
I think I changed my mind on the Burqa ban. Who cares what they wear. The most important thing is to be able to ridicule them or praise them or whatever them, in a way that suits yourself as an individual.
I draw the line then when a persons freedom of speech is cut short. People should be able to say any stupid damn thing or glorious thing. Ha.
November 19th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
that is the power of freedom of speech. interestingly groups like the aclu are great unless you are being censored for right wing views……………..
November 19th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
I’m not sure that I believe freedom of speech is actually the “highest good” that exists - because what it ultimately promotes is this idea that we only know ourselves by how we are expressed socially, by what we think and feel. And while these may be useful social values, they can be very misleading when mixed with some kind of quest for spiritual truth. This is a really good topic though and one which I’ve been considering at great length lately. Still formulating “my opinion” on it (see how hooked into the myth of the usefulness of self-expression I am?).
November 19th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
well, that riff extends into unconscious messages and signals and into misunderstanding communication and into interpretation.
i know what i`m thinking when i begin to type and i hope that i`m at least clear to myself regarding my thoughts………..but often my words are misunderstood by others, and sometimes when i reread my own words later i`m unsure of the nuance.
i have listened to backward recordings of speech and heard some bizzare and sometimes astonishingly clear words and phrases. i think there are clips available on a site.
November 19th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
http://www.reversespeech.com/Simple_Examples.htm
November 19th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
What I have been finding lately is that when I am “thinking clearly” in a way that is expressive, that may not necessarily mean that I myself understand what it is that I want. Or even if I did know what I want, that it’s fulfillment would be the right and correct course of action to take. Not exactly sure where I am taking this thought at the moment, either, but there feels to be some thread that’s important here which I believe there may be some valuable insight and inspiration to be gleaned from those who wear the Burqa or commit other acts of intentional self-limitation. To them there is clearly a much higher and better purpose than simple self-expression. What is it?
November 19th, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Holy shit! That backwards speech page is NUTS
November 19th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Some Monks in the old days used to wear what they called hair shirts. They were awful as in itchy and uncomfortable. I don`t think they are popular anywhere any more , but I don`t know.
November 19th, 2006 at 11:17 pm
Well, why did they wear them? What was the point? Was it to “express themselves”?
November 19th, 2006 at 11:44 pm
It was to make themselves feel miserable. It is even an expression for feeling miserable, wearing a hair shirt. It was back when making yourself feel miserable was in. They thought it brought them closer to god.
November 19th, 2006 at 11:58 pm
speaking of self expression, i have this habit of wanting to play guitar at astonishingly loud volumes and occasionally i will let rip for a half hour or so…………….but only if i`m quite sure that nobody else is around to hear it.
if women want to wear a burka for whatever reason then go right the hell ahead, just as long as it doesn`t adversely effect others. i think that we all know how it effects others in that context…………….
hair shirts were a common practice amongst the jesuits. my father used to go on about them in sort of reverential tones……..as if we`d somehow benifit from wearing one occasionally. from an early age i found a lot of my father`s perceptions about the church to be romantic and nostalgic and that he honestly felt that we`d feel the same way too, just as long as we went along on sunday.
November 19th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
and some of those backward recordings are pretty freaky. the practice is used as therapy by some and you can buy software to reverse audio files………..to find out for yourself.
November 20th, 2006 at 12:58 am
Did it?
I’m not sure I understand!
Or you could download it yourself and try it out for free. Audacity should be able to do it: http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
November 20th, 2006 at 8:16 am
I remember an interview with a girl who was against a burqa ban: ‘If the school allows it,’ she explained, ‘my dad’ll make me wear it!…’ Made me think.
Some difficult things in the comments… individuality is a difficult concept. Like the TV ad for a vehicle I say the other day that suggested you could somehow escape the road by driving down it… (cue Dire Straits ‘Telegraph Road’?)
I heard self-flagellation was indeed once all the rage… not really sure why. Perhaps it was one up on fasting. Or some kind of just deserts for being a miserable sinner… interesting to find out.
November 20th, 2006 at 8:17 am
Sorry, that should obviously be ‘girl who was PRO a burqa ban’
Double negatives confuse me.
November 20th, 2006 at 8:31 am
i meant that we all have a perception of what the burka symbolises in society today with the middle east issue at full hop. the social tension created can be immense. another example would be if i wore my fur coat into starbucks. these are gestures that resonate with internal tensions created by events and media reminders. maybe in a few years the burka will just be another poor fashion choice but right now for some it`s a real insult………….
goes back to my comment about how the aclu will suport free speech, unless it`s right wingish.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:36 am
Is getting closer to god an illusory concept , and would clothing have much of anything to do with it anyway if it were possible , and there was a god to get close to. ?
I suppose someone could open a , Closer to god clothing- boutique store , and put hair shirts into product placement venues in movies.
Mel Gibson endorsed hair shirts for $59.99 on Hollywood Blvd.
Catholics were fond of these special shirts, and there is a legend that John the Baptist wore one.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
But i don’t get what’s insulting about it?
Well, I can help you out on this one: it’s not! In fact, the only thing illusory about it is calling it a “concept” because it is instead a direct experience.
November 20th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
As is said , if you believe the premise , the rest is easy.
I would call listening to Jimi Hendrix a direct experience. I am not so sure about the other thing as described by you as being one.
To each their own though , Viva La , America. ~!~
November 20th, 2006 at 6:02 pm
the direct insult is the presense of the burka as a defiant symbol of a culture and religion/ideology hostile to ours, as are the vast mosque complexes that are appearing in the suburbs in and around toronto and i`m quite sure cities across north america. it`s a slippery slope toward the talibanisation of america and more quickly, europe. with birthrates amongst anglo-saxons at a standstill it won`t take too long for that to happen.
i`m sure the white skin of european invaders meant the same thing at one time too.
regarding a direct knowledge or gnosis, there are those who deny, those who search and those who get hit on the head with it. all positions are valid and true for those experiencing.
November 20th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
A future culture war between the Hispanics and the Muslims.? Lets hope not , maybe they will blend into a new group or something. The Musspanics . A Catholic and Muslim hybred. ?
How about those Scotsman and those damn kilts.? British just hate them.
To people that have had the misfortune to fight them , the Scots that is, they are known as the Ladies from Hell.
November 20th, 2006 at 7:47 pm
No, I am NOT talking about belief. I want to be absolutely clear about that. I am talking about the removal of all belief. There is no premise. And no, it is most assuredly NOT easy.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
I thought you were talking about experiencing god and wouldn`t that be a belief or leap of some kind of faith that there is such a thing.? Or maybe you don`t literally mean some god but some kind of spirituality. ?
What does the removal of all belief mean.? Not believing in things that can`t be proven real. ? What does one end up with if belief is removed. ?
Maybe just walking down the road and kicking stones. Not religion , or most brands of spirituality.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
walking down the road and kicking stones is where god is.
November 21st, 2006 at 12:04 am
Those are all good questions which I encourage you to explore!
Exactly, except it is more like you’re the stone and God is kicking you.
November 21st, 2006 at 12:23 am
Hey wait a minute , I want to be the one doing the kicking. Aren`t I just the same as god. ? Free will .? Kick a stone and see the light.
Pretty cool alistair. It probably is something simple like that.
What a marvel to live and experience. How it resonates with being a kid also and the simple joy of kicking a rock , and walking freely. ~!~
How that same joy is the same in an adult. This same joy may be dreamt on our deathbed in old age .
November 21st, 2006 at 7:02 am
Are those serious questions or provocations?
November 21st, 2006 at 9:37 am
Serious poetry.