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	<title>Comments on: Through The Creation Gate</title>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Podcast 21: Make of me an instrument - Pop Occulture</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31260</link>
		<dc:creator>Podcast 21: Make of me an instrument - Pop Occulture</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 13:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] The first (bottommost) line, undivided, shows one changing the object of his pursuit. If he be firm and correct, there will be good fortune. Going beyond his own gate to find associates, he will achieve merit. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The first (bottommost) line, undivided, shows one changing the object of his pursuit. If he be firm and correct, there will be good fortune. Going beyond his own gate to find associates, he will achieve merit. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31192</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31192</guid>
		<description>Oh yeah I remember reading that now. Still rather shocking how close the parallel is between the two passages. But not *so* shocking seeing as I learned about the "double bind" phenomenon from those 1970's thinkers in the first place, such as Alan Watts, RD Laing, etc. 

Good point though in general about how you can read and "comprehend" something without ever really "getting" it. I tend to think this happens more often than not!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yeah I remember reading that now. Still rather shocking how close the parallel is between the two passages. But not *so* shocking seeing as I learned about the &#8220;double bind&#8221; phenomenon from those 1970&#8217;s thinkers in the first place, such as Alan Watts, RD Laing, etc. </p>
<p>Good point though in general about how you can read and &#8220;comprehend&#8221; something without ever really &#8220;getting&#8221; it. I tend to think this happens more often than not!</p>
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		<title>By: whatacharacter</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31191</link>
		<dc:creator>whatacharacter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31191</guid>
		<description>Again amazed at the coinkydinks - now into re-reading Ralph Metzner's Maps of Consiousness. Inspired by Watts and published in 1971 it looks into, I Ching, Tantra, Tarot, Astrology, Alchemy and Actualism as pathways to futher discovery, while exploring the convergent and divergent meanings of language use within each tradition.

... still I will maintain a zen-like unflapability ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again amazed at the coinkydinks - now into re-reading Ralph Metzner&#8217;s Maps of Consiousness. Inspired by Watts and published in 1971 it looks into, I Ching, Tantra, Tarot, Astrology, Alchemy and Actualism as pathways to futher discovery, while exploring the convergent and divergent meanings of language use within each tradition.</p>
<p>&#8230; still I will maintain a zen-like unflapability &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31188</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31188</guid>
		<description>You actually &lt;a href="http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/05/05/you-are-reading-this-blog-post/" rel="nofollow"&gt;did read&lt;/a&gt; a book by Alan Watt's this year Tim, if I can be so bold as to point it out. 
It seems you fully took this passage "to heart" it would seem, by experiencing it, not just rote comprehension!  

&lt;blockquote&gt;But what has happened? Never at any time were you able to separate yourself from your present thought, or your present experience. The first present experience was reading. When you tried to think about yourself reading, the experience changed, and the next present experience was the thought, â€œI am reading.â€ You could not separate yourself from this experience without passing on to another. It was â€œring around the rosy.â€ When you were thinking, â€œI am reading this sentence, you were not reading it. In other words, in each present experience you were only aware of that experience. You were never aware of being aware. You were never able to separate the thinker from the thought, the knower from the known. All you ever found was a new thought, a new experience.

To be aware, then, is to be aware of thoughts, feelings, sensations, desires and all other forms of experience. Never at any time are you aware of anything which is not experience, not a thought or feeling, but instead an experiencer, thinker or feeler. If this is so, what makes us think any such thing exists.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In your defense of not having read any Watts in a couple years, I can testify that you do read an awful lot and have every excuse for not specifically remembering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You actually <a href="http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/05/05/you-are-reading-this-blog-post/" rel="nofollow">did read</a> a book by Alan Watt&#8217;s this year Tim, if I can be so bold as to point it out.<br />
It seems you fully took this passage &#8220;to heart&#8221; it would seem, by experiencing it, not just rote comprehension!  </p>
<blockquote><p>But what has happened? Never at any time were you able to separate yourself from your present thought, or your present experience. The first present experience was reading. When you tried to think about yourself reading, the experience changed, and the next present experience was the thought, â€œI am reading.â€ You could not separate yourself from this experience without passing on to another. It was â€œring around the rosy.â€ When you were thinking, â€œI am reading this sentence, you were not reading it. In other words, in each present experience you were only aware of that experience. You were never aware of being aware. You were never able to separate the thinker from the thought, the knower from the known. All you ever found was a new thought, a new experience.</p>
<p>To be aware, then, is to be aware of thoughts, feelings, sensations, desires and all other forms of experience. Never at any time are you aware of anything which is not experience, not a thought or feeling, but instead an experiencer, thinker or feeler. If this is so, what makes us think any such thing exists.</p></blockquote>
<p>In your defense of not having read any Watts in a couple years, I can testify that you do read an awful lot and have every excuse for not specifically remembering.</p>
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		<title>By: Emerson</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31179</link>
		<dc:creator>Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31179</guid>
		<description>I'm currently taking a sad amount of pride in recognising the screencap from zombie movie, 'the children'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m currently taking a sad amount of pride in recognising the screencap from zombie movie, &#8216;the children&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31107</link>
		<dc:creator>alistair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 03:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31107</guid>
		<description>alan watts is bang on. shame he`s been gone since 1973..............

he talks about how the technocracy pulls things apart and labels the ever increasinly small parts as if they were seperate things........and then we wonder how to put things back together when necessary.

there is a lecture he gave to a group of technologists in the early 60`s and it exempifies his wit and insight into things. he just speaks in plain english about how pulling things apart and complexifying things will lead to disaster for society. the red tape that bureaucrat produces take up so much of the resources of a community that the hospital can`t get built.............

things haven`t changed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>alan watts is bang on. shame he`s been gone since 1973&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p>he talks about how the technocracy pulls things apart and labels the ever increasinly small parts as if they were seperate things&#8230;&#8230;..and then we wonder how to put things back together when necessary.</p>
<p>there is a lecture he gave to a group of technologists in the early 60`s and it exempifies his wit and insight into things. he just speaks in plain english about how pulling things apart and complexifying things will lead to disaster for society. the red tape that bureaucrat produces take up so much of the resources of a community that the hospital can`t get built&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
<p>things haven`t changed.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31104</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 01:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31104</guid>
		<description>HOLY SHIT

i mean i guess it makes sense on some level, but i havent read watts in a few years and never that book. have been hitting the whole 1970's trip though lately, which i think may help account for that almost word for word sync up</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HOLY SHIT</p>
<p>i mean i guess it makes sense on some level, but i havent read watts in a few years and never that book. have been hitting the whole 1970&#8217;s trip though lately, which i think may help account for that almost word for word sync up</p>
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		<title>By: sketchmonkey</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31101</link>
		<dc:creator>sketchmonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 01:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31101</guid>
		<description>Tim, in all seriousness: you didn't have Watts in mind when you were alluding to the illusion of self???  If not, that's dang freaky-deaky, 'cause ya damn near directly quoted 'im, what with your talk of culture &#38; its use of the double-bind:

&lt;blockquote&gt;We teach children that they have a â€œselfâ€ an â€œidentityâ€ so that we can fool them into believing that they are separate from and different from everyone else. We then use culture and its web of double binds to simultaneously pump up their isolation and criticize them for feeling that way.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Of course, since &lt;em&gt;I'm&lt;/em&gt; in the midst of reading Watts at the moment, the parallels &lt;em&gt;jump&lt;/em&gt; out at me. Here is a similar thought in his words (italics mine) from Chapter 3, entitled &lt;em&gt;How to be a Genuine Fake&lt;/em&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Our society - that is, we ourselves, all of us - is &lt;em&gt;defining the individual with a double-bind&lt;/em&gt;, commanding him to be free and seperate from the world, which he is not, for otherwise the command would not work. Under th ecircumstances, it works only in the sense of implanting an illusion of seperateness, just as the commands of a hypnotist can creat illusions. (pages 79-80, &lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/Book-Taboo-Against-Knowing-Who/dp/0679723005/sr=1-1/qid=1168044841/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8178006-8855843?ie=UTF8&#38;s=books" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Book On The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Great minds must think alike.  Granted, however, if one accepts that the self is illusion, then Misters Boucher &#38; Watts are one and the same. As is the &lt;em&gt;walrus...&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, in all seriousness: you didn&#8217;t have Watts in mind when you were alluding to the illusion of self???  If not, that&#8217;s dang freaky-deaky, &#8217;cause ya damn near directly quoted &#8216;im, what with your talk of culture &amp; its use of the double-bind:</p>
<blockquote><p>We teach children that they have a â€œselfâ€ an â€œidentityâ€ so that we can fool them into believing that they are separate from and different from everyone else. We then use culture and its web of double binds to simultaneously pump up their isolation and criticize them for feeling that way.</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course, since <em>I&#8217;m</em> in the midst of reading Watts at the moment, the parallels <em>jump</em> out at me. Here is a similar thought in his words (italics mine) from Chapter 3, entitled <em>How to be a Genuine Fake</em>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Our society - that is, we ourselves, all of us - is <em>defining the individual with a double-bind</em>, commanding him to be free and seperate from the world, which he is not, for otherwise the command would not work. Under th ecircumstances, it works only in the sense of implanting an illusion of seperateness, just as the commands of a hypnotist can creat illusions. (pages 79-80, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Book-Taboo-Against-Knowing-Who/dp/0679723005/sr=1-1/qid=1168044841/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8178006-8855843?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books" rel="nofollow">The Book On The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are</a>)</p></blockquote>
<p>Great minds must think alike.  Granted, however, if one accepts that the self is illusion, then Misters Boucher &amp; Watts are one and the same. As is the <em>walrus&#8230;</em></p>
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		<title>By: fuj</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31084</link>
		<dc:creator>fuj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 23:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31084</guid>
		<description>Jeez that's right on the money monkey. I read this post and thought 'wow, Tim should really read [see above Alan Watts link]. And there it is for all to see and be uplifted by.

This might be incorrect threading etiquette or something, but happy birthday Tim! Prime numbers are something special. So is your blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeez that&#8217;s right on the money monkey. I read this post and thought &#8216;wow, Tim should really read [see above Alan Watts link]. And there it is for all to see and be uplifted by.</p>
<p>This might be incorrect threading etiquette or something, but happy birthday Tim! Prime numbers are something special. So is your blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31075</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 21:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31075</guid>
		<description>Nope. Unless that someone is you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope. Unless that someone is you!</p>
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		<title>By: sketchmonkey</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/comment-page-1/#comment-31072</link>
		<dc:creator>sketchmonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/04/through-the-creation-gate/#comment-31072</guid>
		<description>Sounds like someone &lt;em&gt;has&lt;/em&gt; been reading a little &lt;a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20041031135118/http:/www.publicappeal.org/library/unicorn/watts/the_book.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;Alan Watts&lt;/a&gt; lately... :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like someone <em>has</em> been reading a little <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20041031135118/http:/www.publicappeal.org/library/unicorn/watts/the_book.htm" rel="nofollow">Alan Watts</a> lately&#8230; <img src='http://www.timboucher.com/journal/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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