i dated a girl on saturday who i knew 27 years ago and we talked on sunday for two hours about religion and her church. she recently read a book where they ask you to renounce all forms of divination, tarot, pendulum dowsing, crystal ball gazing, hypnsis, etc…….and i`m thinking, ok you know what i do and some of my beliefs as a student of divinity, so what`s going on here?

she wanted to discuss adam and eve and the snake and a god who gave us free will etc. and i though oh oh, i`d better change the subject here unless i want to be crucified……

but she wants to go out on friday, so we`ll see.

Seriously, someone promised that this place would be flooded with Satanists, and that got me all excited. Where are they?

There are forces that would have us each see a separate slice of reality, but through one common distorting lens. These trouble me.

I think these forces are simply the manifestation of one consciousness in many bodies. You could also allow it to be celebrated as well as troubling.

There are forces that would have us each see a separate slice of reality, but through one common distorting lens. These trouble me.

*

alistair - at Uni our chaplain would have an open discussion session like you suggest, ‘after work’. (He was well cool: used to wear shades and a pale linen suit and drove a white Porsche [he married into some money, I believe]). The highlight was definitely the Baha’i who would come along: all religions are worshiping the same thing, in the Baha’i view of things… a view, he would explain, that would get his head nailed to a post at an intersection in some parts of the world.

i think i we get more actual work done there anyway.

hey, maybe if churches started doing that………… the minister throws it open to the congregation…………

they wouldn`t dare.

Nothing is safe, of course, except for us. Meaning can be twisted. Words can be twisted. But that doesn’t mean we can or need to be broken because of it.

I haven’t the experiences with ‘evil’ that Ted has had but from a childhood of vigorous church hopping I’ve noticed that every church I’ve been involved with has ‘infiltrators’. They are either lone gunman type crazies or leaders in the church. They are geniuses at timing. They see just where to position themselves to block spiritual/physical progress while in the guise of the most helpful, religiously motivated, kind hearted people you ever want to meet.

They are completely aware of their purposes as opposed to kind people acting unconsciously. Small churches are preyed upon by the lone wolf types and larger denominations intentionally send out these types to prey on the competition. I think they do this to keep these people busy as much as out of malice. These people appoint themselves a mission and if you fail to acknowledge their special mission in life then you would be the enemy.

I don’t know why I’ve always noticed these people and been in positions to verify that they were doing the things they do intentionally but I hope it helps. It can break your spirit if you’re not careful. That seems to be the goal of most of these types of people, but not all.

Seems the manufacture of artefacts, and their passing off as the real thing, is the chief business of a big slice of the world right now.

I’m sure this wasn’t always the case. And I wonder why it seems like the case now, and it didn’t then.

Tim–digging around deoxy from the link to that Alan Watts essay you incorporated a few posts back (on the Value of Psychotic Experience), came across this piece. Don’t know if you’ve read it, but it seems to speak to one of the things you’ve been getting at re: the self:
http://deoxy.org/egofalse.htm

Peace.

So really, nothing is safe from being twisted and co-opted.

Nothing is safe, of course, except for us. Meaning can be twisted. Words can be twisted. But that doesn’t mean we can or need to be broken because of it.

So really, nothing is safe from being twisted and co-opted.

The main twist though, is this message of “all is one, so surrender to the borg”

That is “A course In Miracles” in a nutshell, imo. If I ever see the guy who wrote “The dissapearance of the Universe” I seriously might be tempted to give him a hard right cross to the face.

To me, Jesus is a hostile entity. I don’t know if there is a “real” Jesus, and I was following a counterfiet one. If there is a “true” Christianity and I was following a corrupt version. I don’t know. All I know, is that for me, being a Christian was spiritually oppressive to me. I was enslaved to it. Before I became “born again” I was into new agey type stuff. I had a “spirit guide” that led me to becoming a born again Christian. Through pretty much the same modus operandi described in the article on stalking, my will was broken and I gave in. It took a lot.

A Couple years a go I broke free. And Now whenever I am tempted to go back to some kind of quasi-Christian spirituality, like gnosticism, ACIM, liberal Chirstianity, I get this really creepy feeling. This really creepy energy is associated with this for me, now.

Also anything related to follwing guidence from spirits through “intuition.” Creeps me out.

I especially recomend this one:
Stalking

I have been influenced quite a bit in this line of thought by Michael Topper. I would be surprised if you hadn’t heard of him. I was introduced to his writing through the website of this weird “cult leader” type woman. I can’t think of her name right now, but you have probably heard of her as well. She writes about “organic portals” a lot. Don’t let that put you off towards Topper’s writing. She just glomed onto it. They aren’t connected.

He talks about “bidding” how hostile entities bend you to their will. I have experienced that. I am a really tasty dish, apparently, in the spirit world. Lot’s of nutritional value. Seriously. Some people are more nutritious to soul eaters, than others.

So anyway, I’ve had this ongoing battle. Topper helped me put it into context.

The pyramid structure is the thing in a nutshell. Its a pyramid of soul energy with all the soul energy being sucked to the top. The Modus operandi is deception. Deception is the active end of this two sided transaction, the passive side being “belief.” If you can get people to believe a lie you can eat their soul. Because you give your being to the lie. You devote energy to it.

Think of a moonie, slaving away 18 hours a day selling flowers. Their soul energy is being sapped. The moonies in more intellectual endeavors have their souls sapped too. All their intellect is dedicated to Rev. Moon. This is just one example.

All these institutions are visible representations of what goes on in the spiritual realm. Banks, Corporations, governments. Its all the pyramid.

At the top of the pyramid is the desolate one. He wants to suck all of creation into itself like a black hole.

His idea of God is pretty in depth. You should check it out. I am sure you can google all his writings that’s what I did. I’ll look for links.

Basically though Topper just gave some good explanations for phenomena I have been dealing with for 20 years.

my friend the baptist gets on me when i deconstruct consciousness like that. he says that i don`t know what it is that i know and that it`s really the work of demons.

In the Catholic and post-Catholic mystical christian literature, sometimes this kind of analysis is performed, although it mainly leans towards emotional poetic stuff*, which is also rejected by modern Americhristians. But in the Orthodox Christian tradition, despite having the same aims and symbolism as the Catholic side, all fringe phenomena are regarded as the devil’s work (for instance in the Philokalia) as they are distractions from the One Reality named God. In introspection, as we examine our minds working, we find a powerful fascination with these workings. But it is strange, as soon as we try to push a little and see how ‘it’ works, it captivates us and in a minute we are waking up from another daydream.

I mean, the primary mode of life for Christians should be love, however we think we can interpret that, so depending on your perspective, you could say that insofar as attempts to explore the mind distract from our primary goal to love one another and love the God which even now is our true existence and life, they are harmful. But criticisms of what we could loosely call mystical investigation that are simply based in fear or reflexive rejection are worse than a distraction as they keep us from even seeing that there might be a problem with how our minds work, how we live our lives. Each of us can only judge which side we come down on for ourselves.

*it makes sense that this allegorical style would predominate in Christianity over the more logical expositions in other traditions; Yeshuah himself spoke in parables, almost never in logical arguments, appealing to the hearts of people instead of their intellects. Sufism has a great balance, you have the ecstatic style like Rumi, and the expository style like Ibn Arabi and they complement each other completely.

The Devil was walking down the street with a friend, and they saw a man pick something up, look at it carefully and put it in his pocket. The friend said to the Devil, “What’s that?” The Devil said, “He has found a bit of the truth.” The friend said, “Isn’t that bad for your business?” The Devil said, “No, I am going arrange to have him organize it.”

then of course he riffs on about scientology and jim jones and krishnas……meanwhile it was him that got eaten alive at an est retreat in 1979 and began having psychic conversations with his business partner……

oh yeah and the good acid from the sixties…….

i am posting more about media recently too.

the new priesthood.

after a long agonizing life
as a hunter
i finally let go and got
hunted down and became free

Amazing!

i began to stutter
saying a word here and there
and all along i felt
as tender as a crystal
ready to be shattered

in this stormy sea
we call life
all the big ships
come apart
board by board

how can i survive
riding a lonely
little boat
with no oars
and no arms

my boat did finally break
by the waves
and i broke free
as i tied myself
to a single board

though the panic is gone
i am now offended
why should i be so helpless
rising with one wave
and falling with the next

i don’t know
if i am
nonexistence
while i exist
but i know for sure
when i am
i am not
but
when i am not
then i am

now how can i be
a skeptic
about the
resurrection and
coming to life again

since in this world
i have many times
like my own imagination
died and
been born again

that is why
after a long agonizing life
as a hunter
i finally let go and got
hunted down and became free ”

~Rumi

I learnt a long time ago that ivory towers are for looking from, not at. One of my symbols is a blue lion rampant. I met a man named Gwyn Prins who made me kneel in fealty and who tattooed it on my forehead invisibly, except that I can see it in the mirror. The last time I saw Gwyn Prins he was on the BBC news, commenting on the immediate aftermath of the Twin Towers disaster.

*

… the garage by the water from the sprinkler. He also left a MAN’S DECAPITATED BODY lying on the floor next to his own severed head - a head which at this time has no name…

I say the reference points do indeed have only a half-reality on closer inspection - but on occasion they can point the way to real stuff in between.

Most of the reference points now serve only to hide the good stuff.

Some force within us compels us to make reference points. And then they take a half-life of their own and fear us, for we have the power to dismiss them. And they hide their true nature.

This is a very poor state of affairs. We must make peace with our referents.

I have a name for it all, in my own head. But that in itself is a referent… and a big bad ugly-ass mo-fo it must be, to orchestrate all that ill feeling and hide in the shadows.

But I think it could be like this: People have authentic separate existences. Everyone is a unique creation. The self isn’t just a contstuct. Everyone is not really all the same person separated by illusion. We really are separate and unique. Its not an illusion.

There is God, the creator, source, what have you, and there really is this hostile entity “Satan” if you will. There is a real authentic universe and there is a counterfeit universe created by Satan.

The goal of Satan is to get people to tie their identities into these artificial, external reference points. Your favorite band, your favorite style of dress, your town, your favorite celebrity or whatever. Satan controls most of this stuff.

Then at any time, Satan can say “See all these stuff is all bullshit” These reference points are all arbitrary. All is one. Your separateness is just an illusion”

Then he eats you. He eats your soul.

There is body, soul spirit.

The spirit comes from the source, which is God, the soul is some kind of bi-product or something. Satan eats souls. He’s cut off from the source so he has to eat other peoples bi products from the source. He can’t produce his own.

I think the truth and the lie are a lot alike.

I get paranoid about giving up my identity, thinking its all an illusion…and the reubttals of “its not like a drop of water being swallowed by the sea, its like the drop of water swallowing the sea” etc.

So if you aren’t saying that and there is this linguistic glitch or whatever…If its about fun, its more fun for me to delude myself into thinking I exist and have a unique identity than to think I am just a construct.

The New Age movement was created in a research institute in order to re-write the past by glossing over the actual real revolutionary content of what happened with the Hippies and Yippies and replace it with lifestyle marketing mumbo-jumbo which could be more easily sold and managed culturally.

this reminded me of a Ran Prieur quote i like from another of your posts:

“Almost the entire “new age” movement is just an attempt to make money from the shift back to seeing mind as the root of matter, but once the shift is done, they can’t make money, so they draw it out and put lots of clutter around it. I want to get it done!”

i want to get it done too, and i want to have fun getting it done.

I also like that Platonic realism “cultivates the understanding so that one can pass through that most brilliant light of Being to the Good or the One itself without sacrificing the mind to go beyond the mind.”

cheers

I don’t think I am saying the same thing you are or that I want you to think just like me.

Like Saddam. Intitially, in the trial, he still exuded power and intimidated the hell out of people like the judge. The judge couldn’t look him in the eye.

In real life powerful people intimidate the fuck out of others. But working stiffs often have fantasies that they can kick the big CEO’s ass if it came down to it.

But really when they meet him face to face they feel small and weak. Its like their will is this organizing principle that sucks everyone into line.

So let’s just say you are bullshitting me. Not saying you are, but for the sake of argument, let’s just say you don’t really believe that. You are a psychopth cult leader and you just want to pray on me. You have serious boundary issues. You basically want to consume me and integrate me into yourself.

So you ply me with all this mumbo jumbo, that our individuality is just an illusion, we are really connected, what I think of as me is just a “shell” etc. then I buy this stuff and feel kind of lost and fluid.

I think I would then be pretty good prey to be manipulated in any way you wish.

Meanwhile you still kep your strong sense of self and strong sense of identity and make me part of you. All that is mine is yours etc. My will, everything.

If all this stuff is just pure truth why is it so easy for psychpths to co-opt it?

People with a really strong sense of self can incorporate other people into themselves. It’s through strength of will.

I’m not sure what you mean by that.

So I am always suspicious of people really harping on “all is one” type stuff.

Of course you are, the AI fears death above all else.

but negating other people is bad news.

Who’s negating anyone? Bad news is often followed by good news. And then by bad news, and then by good news.

I am half convinced Jesus is an evil entity that just wants to swallow people like am amoeba and turn them into Jesus.

Yes. That’s what I meant about communication being an attempt to make people isomorphic to you - which is what both of us are doing here as well. We are trying to make the other person like us through our words and concepts so that we can forge a covenant-based consensciousness.

I think you’re saying the same thing I am. I don’t think you think that though because of the difference in our language cloud patterns

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/01/22/podcast-the-cloud-of-words/

so there is no difference between pretending to go to Paris and going to Paris?

Who said that?

If you just pretend to go to Paris, you only draw from other experiences you have already had and morph it into a composit of what you think Paris would be like.

This happens whether or not you actually go to Paris.

Our perceptions are based mostly on memory but there is always the chance for unique experience.

No, our perceptions are based mostly on extrapolation and pattern recognition.

I can look out the window as I drive in my car and imagine feeling the textures of everything I pass and imagine from memory what everything would feel like. But that’s because I touched and experienced a bunch of stuff and remembered it.

No, it’s because you’re imagining it. And imagination is a facet of experience

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006.../podcast-02-ah-to-be-a-caveman-again/

So I am always suspicious of people really harping on “all is one” type stuff.

Not saying you have ulterior motives or anything, but negating other people is bad news.

I am half convinced Jesus is an evil entity that just wants to swallow people like am amoeba and turn them into Jesus.

If you go to Paris or to some place you have never been before that has a different culture…it will now doubt inform you about the world in some way.

So then you will evaluate other cultures, people, places, based partly on your experiences of Paris.

If you just pretend to go to Paris, you only draw from other experiences you have already had and morph it into a composit of what you think Paris would be like.

Our perceptions are based mostly on memory but there is always the chance for unique experience.

I can look out the window as I drive in my car and imagine feeling the textures of everything I pass and imagine from memory what everything would feel like. But that’s because I touched and experienced a bunch of stuff and remembered it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)

The idea of chronologies different from the conventional chronology can be traced back to at least the early 17th century. Jean Hardouin then suggested that many ancient historical documents were much younger than commonly believed to be. In 1685 he published a version of Pliny the Elder’s Natural History in which he claimed that most Greek and Roman texts had been forged by Benedictine monks. When later questioned on these results, Hardouin stated that he would reveal the monks’ reasons in a letter to be revealed only after his death. The executors of his estate were unable to find such a document among his posthumous papers.

Hello, I am nadezhda. I am 27 years old and now I am looking for my
second half. He should be responsible, intelligent and cute. I think that I am looking for you… And what do you think about it? I am waiting for your opinion: nadezhda@bestladies4u.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism

Say you’ve never been to Paris - here’s how you change your personal history so that you have been to Paris. You imagine yourself arriving at De Gaulle airport, taking a taxi to your hotel, walking down the Champs d’Elysee, visiting the American drugstore and listening to a CNN broadcast there in English on the television set. By progressively filling in all the modalities of visual, sound, kinesthetic, olfactory, and gustatory, you build up a personal history that allows you to congruently believe and say, “Yes, I was in Paris once.”