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	<title>Comments on: Lost In The Immense Suffering</title>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself (Something wicked this way comes) &#171; 2 Relight</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86178</link>
		<dc:creator>The Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself (Something wicked this way comes) &#171; 2 Relight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86178</guid>
		<description>[...] Lost In The Immense Suffering [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Lost In The Immense Suffering [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86062</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86062</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I added that in as a joke to see if anybody would notice it :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I added that in as a joke to see if anybody would notice it <img src='http://www.timboucher.com/journal/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: cheeba</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86061</link>
		<dc:creator>cheeba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86061</guid>
		<description>Curious, this post-collapse meme fizzing away at the cutting edge of whatever this sub-blogospherelet is. I started working on critical revision of various collapsist and peak-oil beliefs I had picked up a month ago or so. Part of the reason I've started lurking at this site again: I saw Tim's response to some Christian telling him he's going to hell and it was so... nice! Compassionate, empathic, grounded. Suddenly realised I was reading far too much negativity into my life at other sites.

But I do have to ask, since we're all no longer waiting for 2012, maybe it's time to change the "by Tim Boucher, 2012, Creative Commons" bit at the bottom? How about 2112? That would give us all some breathing space...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curious, this post-collapse meme fizzing away at the cutting edge of whatever this sub-blogospherelet is. I started working on critical revision of various collapsist and peak-oil beliefs I had picked up a month ago or so. Part of the reason I&#8217;ve started lurking at this site again: I saw Tim&#8217;s response to some Christian telling him he&#8217;s going to hell and it was so&#8230; nice! Compassionate, empathic, grounded. Suddenly realised I was reading far too much negativity into my life at other sites.</p>
<p>But I do have to ask, since we&#8217;re all no longer waiting for 2012, maybe it&#8217;s time to change the &#8220;by Tim Boucher, 2012, Creative Commons&#8221; bit at the bottom? How about 2112? That would give us all some breathing space&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86043</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86043</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Collapse and creative destruction are great concept&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, they are not great concepts. They are hysterical antics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Collapse and creative destruction are great concept</p></blockquote>
<p>No, they are not great concepts. They are hysterical antics.</p>
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		<title>By: Julia</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86040</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86040</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;We may need to see a collapse of â€œfictitious capitalâ€ &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I get the point and I don't follow Mr. Pinchbeck's work so I don't know his context but "fictitious capital" is what many of the six billion people on Earth base their lives on. Collapse and creative destruction are great concept but it's funny that none of the advocates for these things are creative enough to come up with safety nets. 

This morning I read an article about the introduction of genetically modified seed stocks in India by Monsanto, ADM etc. Many failed and an estimated 28,000 farmers committed suicide in the decade to follow. Their collapse has already happened, now what? 

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/13/1451229</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>We may need to see a collapse of â€œfictitious capitalâ€ </p></blockquote>
<p>I get the point and I don&#8217;t follow Mr. Pinchbeck&#8217;s work so I don&#8217;t know his context but &#8220;fictitious capital&#8221; is what many of the six billion people on Earth base their lives on. Collapse and creative destruction are great concept but it&#8217;s funny that none of the advocates for these things are creative enough to come up with safety nets. </p>
<p>This morning I read an article about the introduction of genetically modified seed stocks in India by Monsanto, ADM etc. Many failed and an estimated 28,000 farmers committed suicide in the decade to follow. Their collapse has already happened, now what? </p>
<p><a href="http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/13/1451229" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/13/1451229'>http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/13/1451229</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ted Heistman</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86029</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Heistman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86029</guid>
		<description>Right, that part too. But I was thinking along the lines of this huge global transformation he was envisioning in "Prometheus Rising"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, that part too. But I was thinking along the lines of this huge global transformation he was envisioning in &#8220;Prometheus Rising&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86027</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86027</guid>
		<description>The collapse in any form is what RAW and Leary would have called a loser script. Write a winner script. Then live it. That's the point of life. We're not here to suffer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The collapse in any form is what RAW and Leary would have called a loser script. Write a winner script. Then live it. That&#8217;s the point of life. We&#8217;re not here to suffer.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Heistman</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86026</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Heistman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86026</guid>
		<description>I was gonna say, Fuck! But I toned it down to forget so my point wouldn't be lost. 

Yeah, Supercentury! You know if you read RAW, he would have liked that idea better then all this collapse shit a lot of his fans seem to be into for some reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was gonna say, Fuck! But I toned it down to forget so my point wouldn&#8217;t be lost. </p>
<p>Yeah, Supercentury! You know if you read RAW, he would have liked that idea better then all this collapse shit a lot of his fans seem to be into for some reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86022</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86022</guid>
		<description>Yeah, fuck the collapse. Fuck 2012. This is the Super Century. It's gonna be better than all the rest combined!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, fuck the collapse. Fuck 2012. This is the Super Century. It&#8217;s gonna be better than all the rest combined!</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Heistman</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86021</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Heistman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86021</guid>
		<description>yeah, forget collapse. I was thinking about that in regards to "The Secret" A certian segment of the population, myself formerly included, is attracting this narrative, idea, or whatever, of a collapse of civilization. 

What a Downer. Seriously. I am thinking maybe if it stays kind of fringe, it will just attract shitty things into the lives of those people focusing on this dream of "collapse."  But if it really catches on, I am sure it would have enough collective energy to really happen. 

"Transformation" I think is a much better word picture. "Revolution" has become trite perhaps. 

There are different kinds of revolutions, though, some are peaceful and not bloody at all. 

But anyway, this collapse thing is so passive aggressive and negative. Basically its all about hating powerful people and wishing bad things to happen to them. Its not empowering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah, forget collapse. I was thinking about that in regards to &#8220;The Secret&#8221; A certian segment of the population, myself formerly included, is attracting this narrative, idea, or whatever, of a collapse of civilization. </p>
<p>What a Downer. Seriously. I am thinking maybe if it stays kind of fringe, it will just attract shitty things into the lives of those people focusing on this dream of &#8220;collapse.&#8221;  But if it really catches on, I am sure it would have enough collective energy to really happen. </p>
<p>&#8220;Transformation&#8221; I think is a much better word picture. &#8220;Revolution&#8221; has become trite perhaps. </p>
<p>There are different kinds of revolutions, though, some are peaceful and not bloody at all. </p>
<p>But anyway, this collapse thing is so passive aggressive and negative. Basically its all about hating powerful people and wishing bad things to happen to them. Its not empowering.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86015</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86015</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments Daniel! I'm happy to have you around to discuss things, as I think you are an extremely intelligent person. However, as you know, I often disagree with your views! I in fact value your viewpoint the more as it is not always in accord with mine and challenges me to look at my own attitudes in new ways.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I feel that you manage to twist my ideas and intentions in everything you write about my work. It is unfortunate.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I recognize my own failings in our communications quite readily, but have you considered that perhaps you are simply not communicating as effectively as you could?

&lt;blockquote&gt;That is why we started Reality Sandwich - http://realitysandwich.com - a media website that will develop into a social network for sharing tools and exchanging resources as well as information.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In what way will Reality Sandwich transform into that? Last I heard of it, you were just posting attacks by John Lash to other websites.



&lt;blockquote&gt;In the last decades, the economic system has acted as a funnel siphoning wealth and resources upward from the many to the few. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

You see this as only a recent development?



&lt;blockquote&gt;The inequities have grown to become monstrous disproportions, creating an oligarchy that is now building its own private armies.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So you're going to combat massive armies of the oligarchy with a website?



&lt;blockquote&gt;In fact, I see the naked revealing of the current financial system as a positive thing. We may need to see a collapse of â€œfictitious capitalâ€ before we can readjust to dealing with the natural capital of the planet.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You write, "We *may* need to see a collapse" and I maintain that it is &lt;strong&gt;your choice&lt;/strong&gt; to see a collapse as necessary. You are actively selecting towards a particular reality - one which is almost certainly not positive in that it "requires" collapse. And this is not me twisting your words.



&lt;blockquote&gt;However there is huge potential for transformation right now - I recommend Michael Hardt and Antonio Negriâ€™s book â€œMultitudeâ€ as one cogent analysis.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, this is not the time for reading more books and for engaging in further "cogent analysis." This is the time for people to master themselves, perfecting their own experience of life, and improving that of all others. 

And we do not need to wait for 2012 to happen. And we do not require a collapse to change. These are at best wrong, and at worst dangerous attitudes to hold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments Daniel! I&#8217;m happy to have you around to discuss things, as I think you are an extremely intelligent person. However, as you know, I often disagree with your views! I in fact value your viewpoint the more as it is not always in accord with mine and challenges me to look at my own attitudes in new ways.</p>
<blockquote><p>I feel that you manage to twist my ideas and intentions in everything you write about my work. It is unfortunate.</p></blockquote>
<p>I recognize my own failings in our communications quite readily, but have you considered that perhaps you are simply not communicating as effectively as you could?</p>
<blockquote><p>That is why we started Reality Sandwich - <a href="http://realitysandwich.com" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://realitysandwich.com'>http://realitysandwich.com</a> - a media website that will develop into a social network for sharing tools and exchanging resources as well as information.</p></blockquote>
<p>In what way will Reality Sandwich transform into that? Last I heard of it, you were just posting attacks by John Lash to other websites.</p>
<blockquote><p>In the last decades, the economic system has acted as a funnel siphoning wealth and resources upward from the many to the few. </p></blockquote>
<p>You see this as only a recent development?</p>
<blockquote><p>The inequities have grown to become monstrous disproportions, creating an oligarchy that is now building its own private armies.</p></blockquote>
<p>So you&#8217;re going to combat massive armies of the oligarchy with a website?</p>
<blockquote><p>In fact, I see the naked revealing of the current financial system as a positive thing. We may need to see a collapse of â€œfictitious capitalâ€ before we can readjust to dealing with the natural capital of the planet.</p></blockquote>
<p>You write, &#8220;We *may* need to see a collapse&#8221; and I maintain that it is <strong>your choice</strong> to see a collapse as necessary. You are actively selecting towards a particular reality - one which is almost certainly not positive in that it &#8220;requires&#8221; collapse. And this is not me twisting your words.</p>
<blockquote><p>However there is huge potential for transformation right now - I recommend Michael Hardt and Antonio Negriâ€™s book â€œMultitudeâ€ as one cogent analysis.</p></blockquote>
<p>No, this is not the time for reading more books and for engaging in further &#8220;cogent analysis.&#8221; This is the time for people to master themselves, perfecting their own experience of life, and improving that of all others. </p>
<p>And we do not need to wait for 2012 to happen. And we do not require a collapse to change. These are at best wrong, and at worst dangerous attitudes to hold.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Pinchbeck</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-86009</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Pinchbeck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-86009</guid>
		<description>Hi Tim,

I feel that you manage to twist my ideas and intentions in everything you write about my work. It is unfortunate. 

Of course, I still believe in "positive action" in the world. That is why we started Reality Sandwich - http://realitysandwich.com - a media website that will develop into a social network for sharing tools and exchanging resources as well as information. In fact, I see the naked revealing of the current financial system as a positive thing. We may need to see a collapse of "fictitious capital" before we can readjust to dealing with the natural capital of the planet. 

In the last decades, the economic system has acted as a funnel siphoning wealth and resources upward from the many to the few. The inequities have grown to become monstrous disproportions, creating an oligarchy that is now building its own private armies. 

However there is huge potential for transformation right now - I recommend Michael Hardt and Antonio Negri's book "Multitude" as one cogent analysis. 

yours,
dp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>I feel that you manage to twist my ideas and intentions in everything you write about my work. It is unfortunate. </p>
<p>Of course, I still believe in &#8220;positive action&#8221; in the world. That is why we started Reality Sandwich - <a href="http://realitysandwich.com" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://realitysandwich.com'>http://realitysandwich.com</a> - a media website that will develop into a social network for sharing tools and exchanging resources as well as information. In fact, I see the naked revealing of the current financial system as a positive thing. We may need to see a collapse of &#8220;fictitious capital&#8221; before we can readjust to dealing with the natural capital of the planet. </p>
<p>In the last decades, the economic system has acted as a funnel siphoning wealth and resources upward from the many to the few. The inequities have grown to become monstrous disproportions, creating an oligarchy that is now building its own private armies. </p>
<p>However there is huge potential for transformation right now - I recommend Michael Hardt and Antonio Negri&#8217;s book &#8220;Multitude&#8221; as one cogent analysis. </p>
<p>yours,<br />
dp</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-85963</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-85963</guid>
		<description>Sphere of the moral purpose, baby!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sphere of the moral purpose, baby!</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Heistman</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-85956</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Heistman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 03:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-85956</guid>
		<description>I find myself worrying less about peak oil. It struck me today when I saw a commercial about alternative fuels. I said to myself "People more qualified then me are working on this."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find myself worrying less about peak oil. It struck me today when I saw a commercial about alternative fuels. I said to myself &#8220;People more qualified then me are working on this.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boucher</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-85955</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boucher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-85955</guid>
		<description>Shoot, I forgot that I salvaged Frankl's book from my old house. Need to get reading that!



&lt;blockquote&gt;events have gone beyond human capacity to control, predict or even conceptualize.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Reading this again, it strikes me how absurdly defeatist this is to say. We always have the ability to make choices and to improve our experience. There is nothing that exists or can exist that lies apart from our God-given ability to Reason and to Act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shoot, I forgot that I salvaged Frankl&#8217;s book from my old house. Need to get reading that!</p>
<blockquote><p>events have gone beyond human capacity to control, predict or even conceptualize.</p></blockquote>
<p>Reading this again, it strikes me how absurdly defeatist this is to say. We always have the ability to make choices and to improve our experience. There is nothing that exists or can exist that lies apart from our God-given ability to Reason and to Act.</p>
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		<title>By: Julia</title>
		<link>http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-85953</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2007/10/10/lost-in-the-immense-suffering/#comment-85953</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Something has snapped in the spirit of the time; events have gone beyond human capacity to control, predict or even conceptualize.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree. This has more to do with an internal state than an external one but they are linked. I'm sure the people living through the aftermath of WW I, the Depression, during the Holocaust etc. felt the same way. This man shows how high the human spirit can grow despite hideous, world changing circumstances. I'm sure there are lots more like him who never become public figures. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Something has snapped in the spirit of the time; events have gone beyond human capacity to control, predict or even conceptualize.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree. This has more to do with an internal state than an external one but they are linked. I&#8217;m sure the people living through the aftermath of WW I, the Depression, during the Holocaust etc. felt the same way. This man shows how high the human spirit can grow despite hideous, world changing circumstances. I&#8217;m sure there are lots more like him who never become public figures. </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl</a></p>
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