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Online Gnosticism Officially Dead?
The grandaddy of online gnostics, Jeremy Puma, has recently folded up shop and moved on. Jeremy is pretty much *the* person who got me deeply interested in that stuff several years ago and has been an excellent co-blogger on lots of topics, especially cool fortean/UFO-type stuff. The article in which he announced this move is a worthwhile read and includes - among other things - a gloomy “prophecy” for the online gnostic community…
Articles With Similar Themes:
Read In Sequence:
November 14th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
not just online gnosticism: *all* modern ‘gnostic’ movements. but they’re not dead, just doomed.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Walking dead, then?
November 14th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
I think it’s probably because gnosticism is “elitist”!
November 14th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
i think you may be right!
November 14th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Yeah, I mean, I’ve still never heard anybody explicitly say what “gnosis” actually is and have it be reasonable. I more just like the myth and symbolism; but even that is, honestly, kind of elitist - seeing as how its all in Greek and shit!
November 14th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
and let’s not forget narcissistic!
November 14th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
gnosticistic fibrosis!
November 14th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Regardless of Puma’s pronouncements, tantrums and condemnations, Gnosticism is alive and well and thriving. Where he has declared it’s all “lies” and “bullshit”, there is real work being done not only in scholarship, in artistic exploration and in sacramental services, but also in real-world charitable mission; making the message of gnosis real in the world through compassion. Jeremy’s ad hominem attacks agains the people and organizations doing exactly this work changes nothing.
Quispel said gnosis is “knowledge of the heart”. It doesn’t really need to be more complicated than that. And it really isn’t.
November 14th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
What if we just cut to the compassion?
November 14th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Jordan, you silly billy, I thought your skin was thicker. And if there’s any “ad hominem” in anything I said, it wasn’t put there by me. Or, did you miss this?:
Spot the ad hominem!
AFAIC, all modern Gnostic organizations *are* lying to us, in the same sense that I’ve always been a liar, too. This very sentence is a lie. “[Semiotics is] the science of everything subject to the lie: it is also the science of everything subject to the comic or tragic distortion.” - Umberto Eco
November 14th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
I don’t hold to that deconstructionist viewpoint (if that’s even the right word). Truth exists. Without it nothing else could. We can speak it. We can live it.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Gnosis is eternal. It is we who are merely dust in the wind.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:22 am
there is no eternal; gnosis is dust in the wind.
what truth? more distraction.
from what? from that which is all around you: raw unmediated experience
uncertainty?
truth is another ideological curse. better off without it. am i lying?
anyway, i’m done with gnosticism so now it’s all bullshit so ner
the obvious question: so?
November 15th, 2007 at 1:28 am
“It’s All Bullshit. Every group, every organization, every individual who currently claims to represent “Gnosticism” is lying to you.”
This is vile. It’s personal, it’s untrue, and it’s vile.
I thought so much better of you, Jeremy. This isn’t about being “thin skinned”, it’s about calling you out publicly on your revolting behaviour.
Stop it, pull your tantrum, and get on with your life. Nobody faults you for unplugging, or choosing your own path. But there’s work to be done, and many, many others are doing it, and you are slandering them. You really are.
Enough.
Tim? You know better than to encourage these kinds of spiteful junior high school antics. This is beneath you.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:45 am
You know its funny. I was really into the forum, I even had my home page open up to the palm tree garden. Then I kind of lost interest in it, after i kind of expressed some of my qualms with some of it.
For some reason I stopped posting and now its folded.
One thing about online forum though is they provoke arguments and that tends to lead to negativity. Its not just a gnosticism thing.
But anyway, I found a Unitarian Universalist church here in Madison that I really like and am looking forward to making it my spiritual home. I still like PKD except I am convinced we live in a friendly Universe, he seemed to leave it open ended even up till the end.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:39 am
Only thing I’m sorry about is that Tim’s comment thread got hijacked like this.
Tim, I apologize for the weird vitriol– feel free to delete this silly little back-and-forth if you’re so inclined.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Well anyway, JP, you are a smart guy with a lot going for you. I am sure there are great things in your future. Good luck man.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seOQyMvG99w
This is the silliest conversation ever!
November 15th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
What did I miss…
November 15th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
I still don’t know!
November 15th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Whoah, what the flying hell is going on here? Online Gnosticism officially dead? JP’s blog is down, but there’s still good discussions going on at the PTG, we even have a prominent scholar in the field answering questions for us on her new book. If anything, that’s a turn for the better.
Elitism? Narcisissism (sp?)? WTF? Just because there is a small handful of “GnosticDouchebagX”s running around doesn’t mean jack.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Deader than dead! Beating a dead horse era, even!
And what field is that, exactly? Compassion?
November 18th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Let me put it this way: a community of people are trying to understand and promote gnosis (in its most Open Source interpretation imaginable) as a basic human birthright. These same people are at the same time learning about and innovating the specific symbolic language, myths, and history which have provided the host organism in which gnosis can reside.
The PTG has grown from a handful of crackpots and ne’er-do-wells to a thriving community of crackpots and ne’er-do-wells who are exploring gnosis and Gnosticism through art, compassion, personal practice AND scholarly debate. All of these aspects are gaining traction and recognition outside “online Gnosticism”. And yes, more than one serious, respected scholar in the field of historical Gnosticism has recognized the contribution being made to the debate.
As for Jeremy’s pronouncements that “all modern Gnostic movements are doomed” is like saying that because yoga is popular right now 100 years from now there will be no yoga. It’s just nonsense. Gnosticism will not go away as one legitimate path to gnosis (among many) just because JP would like it to.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Tim -
Who appointed you and JP the deciders here as to whether Gnosticism online is dead or not? JP had a breakdown and denounced everything he helped build, so suddenly it’s dead? Is that particularly fair? JEREMY PUMA is the *entire* face of Gnosticism online? Give me a break. You can’t just force it to die by proclaiming it is dead. This is not a presidential election.
Dr April DeConick is a prominent and published scholar in the field of ancient Gnostic studies. It is an honor to have her on the site.
As for compassion, since you and JP are now throwing stones at the rest of us, what do *you* do? Bishop Rosamonde Miller has an outreach program to AIDS patients. Jordan Stratford visits the mentally ill. Bishop Thomas fights social injustice and war, even getting himself thrown in jail for his principles. I am myself Catholic and help the homeless in my area every winter. Every Gnostic Church I can think of makes charity work a pillar of their formation and ordination. And you have the nerve to insinuate that these people lack compassion? Why? Because JP said so in some ridiculously poorly-worded rant. To date, I haven’t heard of his group doing any of these things, but you and he have jumped to attack people for not doing these things who ARE doing these things.
So what are you doing? You must be doing all of the above and more to so easily dismiss them as lacking compassion. You must be stopping bombs with your teeth and saving schoolhouses full of orphans to make such unfair generalizations as “all youse guys lack compassion.”
I just expected so much more out of you.
What the hell.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
It almost sounds like you guys take yourselves way too seriously…
Just so we all know what we’re talking about, which one of you has achieved gnosis?
November 18th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Well, me. Duh. Only person I can speak for.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
And this is what gnosis looks like? This is how gnosis acts? Your actions are sanctioned by the light of an intimate knowledge of God?
I mean, what are you really reacting to here, fellas? What specifically did I say that got you so riled up?
November 18th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
That’s how people react, Tim, when you call them bullshit liars, elitists, and selfish jerks. That’s how people react when they’re out there in the trenches trying to feed people and counsel the insane and someone comes along and says 1) they’re not even doing that and 2) they’re bullshit liars and their life’s work is “dead.”
It boggles my mind that you and JP, not having done anything that you’re chiding others for failing to do, can walk into a room full of people feeding the poor, visiting the sick, and fighting social injustice and look down your nose at them. I am so freaking confused right now. What exactly has several years of ranting and raving about UFO conspiracies and occultism done for the world? And you have the *nerve* to dismiss these people as beating a dead horse when they’re visiting the sick?
And for the record, I am not enlightened. I’m just some guy who’s trying to make a living here. But your tone of condescension makes pretty clear who is.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Well, yes. This is how *my* gnosis acts: standing up against the slander of people whom I admire greatly and their work. It’s a justice thing. Your gnosis may be entirely other, and I’ll never be in a position to judge that.
Tim all you did was high-five Jeremy for his rant, which was hurtful because it set out to hurt and defame. You have a good editorial voice, and you chose to lend it to this. It just seemed odd is all.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
When and where did I “high-five” Jeremy? I love you guys but you’re seeing what you want to see in this. And you’re hurt because you thought Jeremy was just like you, and now that he has doubts, you have to lash out in order to protect your self image.
I called his article a “worthwhile read” - which it is.
I’m not going to back off on the compassion thing, because - um, what did I say wrong? That compassion is more important than some type of invisible knowledge nobody can define? Now all of a sudden, I’m the bad guy and I’m defaming people because I’m saying “yeah, compassion is important”?
Like I said, I love you guys and consider you brothers in arms in some sense, but this conversation is seriously preposterous. Anything Jeremy said stands on its own, speaks for itself, and is abundantly clear. Whether or not I agree with it, Jeremy is my friend. This is all very simple to me.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
That compassion is more important than some type of invisible knowledge nobody can define? Now all of a sudden, I’m the bad guy and I’m defaming people because I’m saying “yeah, compassion is important”?
Whoah, nobody disagrees with your stance on compassion. Which is why it’s so important to support and not defame those who are manifesting compassion, as JP did in his “worthwhile read”.
“invisible knowledge nobody can define”?: See “knowledge of the heart” above. Really not complicated.
This is not about protecting “self image”. He can take all the shots at me he wants if that’s how he gets his jollies now. But I know a dozen friends of mine or more that he took a swipe at, and guess what? That makes me cranky. I maintain there’s a huge difference between “lashing out” and calling someone on their crap. That’s all that’s happened here.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
No, that’s NOT all that happened here, but that’s okay. I still love you guys!
November 18th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
What the? Dude, I thought Jeremy was just like me in having zero doubts? What the hell? I don’t think you know me very well.
I thought it was very rude of you to dismiss Dr DeConick because she wasn’t visiting us specifically to sow compassion, but to educate us about our mutual Western culture. I’m sorry you find that such a worthless use of our time, and I’m sorry you feel the need to categorically reject Dr D’s field in such a sarcastic manner.
No, you’re the bad guy because real people are out there in the real world doing real things and you’ve jumped on the bandwagon of calling these people bullshit-liar-elitist-narcissists. The fact is that compassion and Gnosis are not *separate* domains to the people that are being called “BSLENs.”
“Gnosis is worthless, maybe they should stop worrying about abstract stupidity like Gnosis and start doing some real-world compassionate work!”
It is the personal Gnostic experience of these people that is compelling them to help other human beings. They see the same inherent worth in others as they see in themselves. Even if Gnosis were bullshit in a cosmic sense, Gnosis is not just bullshit to these people, it informs their passion for helping people in the real-world. That is not “bullshit.” When they say “I am helping so-and-so because I believe that they are worth as much as everyone else, a precious end-in-themselves that should be honored and loved and respected,” they are not “lying to you”.
Is this more of the “you guys are proving Gnosis is stupid and you lack compassion by fighting with me” talk? Because that stuff is really obnoxious. So if someone walks into a synagogue and tells the people inside they’re a bunch of clueless jerks who do X Y and Z evil things, and they get upset that they’re being unfairly characterized, it is the guy who walked in spouting insults that is taking the higher road?
Man this shit is backwards. I am still quite lost.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
HA HA, you mean like all the times Jesus does this in the Bible? I can pull quotes for you if you want!
You’re the one who says so!
November 18th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
“While we’re on the subject - I can’t stand the Dutch. What a bunch of lying bastards. Everything they do is complete bullshit. They’re not legitimate whatsoever and if they tell you they represent the Dutch, they’re lying to you. They’re in the same category of human being as South Pacific cannibals, Nazis, and Jim Jones. In no way am I trying to slander the Dutch. I just want them to stop being such smelly lousy excuses for human beings for once.”
…and when the Dutch guy goes “huh? I’m really upset by that!” Tim Boucher says “see how upset he is? That means he’s unenlightened and lacks compassion.” Sorry dude, the “I’m not denouncing the Dutch” line doesn’t erase all the lines of denunciation that follow it.
Dude, I am SO freaking confused about what your damage is. I agree that this is the stupidest conversation ever. But look who started it. “Congrats to JP for proclaiming the positive and compassionate work of others to be doomed bullshit!”
BTW, in the Gospels Jesus isn’t denouncing Judaism or Jews but specific practices that have become damaging to the Jewish community. He was not denouncing the proprietors of a functioning soup kitchen for failing to run a functioning soup kitchen, which is the issue here.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
So now I’m being called a Nazi and *I’m* the one who is damaged?
I love you!
November 18th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Huh? I didn’t call you a Nazi - what the hell. I just pointed out WHY people got upset.
Geez…
November 18th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Man this shit is backwards
“Backwards” doesn’t begin to describe it.
I don’t know if Gnosticism is alive or dead or somewhere in-between, but it’s heartening to see that offence at imagined personal slights will apparently always win out over enlightenment. People REALLY need to calm down and realise what unsightly fools they’re making of themselves here, cos I’m sure the archons are loving it.
November 18th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Look, this has gone much too far and is being taken far too seriously by too many people who should be spending their time doing nice things for one another. I’ve edited the original post with my apologies:
http://www.palmtreegarden.org/fp/2007/11/05/a-curtain-call-and-a-prophecy/
FWIW, I can’t speak for Tim, but I still feel as though I’ve been incredibly misread. Just a couple of things to note:
- Nowhere in Tim’s post did he indicate that the PTG had folded. It was a tongue-in-cheek comment; Tim and I have known one another since long before the PTG was a twinkle on somebody’s hard drive, so I read this as such. I figured everybody else who read it would recognize it as same.
- Nowhere in my original post did I ever maintain that the PTG had folded, nor did I ever once intend to cast aspersions on the good work being done by modern Gnostic organizations. I even said: “This withdrawal extends to my participation in the Palm Tree Garden. The people over there are more than exceptional, and I have total faith that they’ll be able to continue the community without my direct involvement.”
and…
“This is not a condemnation of the wonderful work being done by these organizations….”
- As was mentioned to me in a recent personal e-mail, “Why would you continue to have your books available, and the site up, if you thought it was lies and bullshit? What’s in it for you to disseminate this information if it has no integrity?”
EXACTLY. I included myself and my own activities and organizations in the “Bullshit category” because *I intended to indicate that all extant Gnostic organizations are inadequate.* It was a rhetorical device that was taken personally by those who I had hoped would recognize it as a rhetorical device. This is why my original post reads, “I remain devoted to the Gnostic Path, and those who wish to contact me can do so through the OA.”
The whole “elitist” and “narcissistic” thing was a — I say — a joke, son. A funny. In a way, these statements are always big bugbears for Gnostics, and part of what we’re getting at is asking why people seem to think that this is the case. But, in this case (notice Tim’s scare quotes?) it was not meant to be taken seriously.
But in the end, people’s feelings were hurt. So, my apologies for that. Ya’ll all know I love you.
So readers, check it out: there are scads of modern Gnostics who do really good things, and I encourage those interested to seek them out.
Sorry again. And now, Ciao.
November 18th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
Aaaaand that concludes our broadcast hour.
Many blessing for those of you who’ve had to put up with our little family spat.
Oh honey, let’s never fight again.
November 18th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
WTF? I’m the grandaddy
thats why i can site back and laugh at the antics of the mind-controlled muppets, LOL
Vote Ron Paul!
November 18th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
No, you’re the great-grandfather and I thought you were overrun by hackers, anyway. You must be finally pissing off the right people!
November 18th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
wow man you reply fast!
hey i’m finally taking your advice and moving over to wordpress…
seriously tho, if the roman empire and 16 centuries of crusades, inquistions and witchunts didn’t kill gnosticism, one blog more or less (even a great blog like JP’s) isn’t goona be the tipping point
really loved you article son “what the hell happened to me” btw
very inspirational
so funny sad and true human nature the first response most people have is to start trying to poke holes in it…
“Take a look around, then, and see that none of the uninitiated are listening. Now by the uninitiated I mean the people who believe in nothing but what they can grasp in their hands, and who will not allow that action or generation or anything invisible can have real existence.” - Plato “Theaetetus”