My take:
Laws are transcended when one is in love. Anything that could be called God’s Law must somehow be a communication of this love. Man’s Law is the net that saves us when we fall from love. Not that we break laws when we are in love- true laws are in line with the actions of someone motivated by love.
god`s law is that of what happens and will happen whether the laws of men allow it or not.
for instance; my children love me and want (demand) that they see me in spite of the fact that my ex has full custody. the custody was a term of the seperation…..again, a law written by men that told her to be seperate from me. i wonder what she thought she was before the judgement.
there are no laws written by men that contain, limit or permit love.
this god cat, as we have constructed him, is how we personify the creation of this miracle called life and everything we see, feel and touch……and as such i can see how people groove on the idea of a bloke “up there” who did all of this…….but the fact remains that whatever is going on is outside of our ability to understand it.
but there are those who take the scientific approach that we just haven`t made an instrument sensitive and powerful enough to discover the truth…….
The thing about personification is that it is what our brains are best at doing. We evolved in an atmosphere where the dangers were mostly whether or not we shared well with our neighbor and trusted the right people. We got good at the theory of mind stuff. Theory of mind is our most powerful tool for bringing knowledge and emotions together- a tool that somehow gathers the things that once were mutualism and now are revealed to be life’s discovery of love.
“No laws written by men contain, limit, or permit love” But laws are created out of love.
Its n0t really an uns0phisticated way 0f viewing G0d. I think there is an anthr0pic principle t0 creati0n that is ev0lving t0wards an “0mega p0int”
S0 really being a pers0n is g00d and as we ev0lve we will be m0re 0f 0ur 0wn pers0n with m0re individuality. Its by design.
Since I came t0 understand this, I figured 0ut why I have such an aversi0n t0 c0llectivism.
I als0 think G0d’s laws are based 0n sacred ge0metry and like y0u said Man’s laws are a net, because basically when we d0n’t 0perate 0n the basis 0f l0ve we are a danger t0 each 0ther.
I think God is a person too. Three persons actually, being a Catholic. But you have to play within the rules of the game set up by evolution. Which I think of as a story God is telling us in which he is almost undetectable. Living fully in that story lets you stand in a solitude that lets indiviuality grow.
Not sure but a link between what I think and what you call sacred geometry might be what I think of as the moral to the story: you leave matter and energy lying around and it reaches for God, for love. Its the way of things.
I guess the Genesis of this question for me has to do with actively doing things that you know in your heart are right and True, but that society wants you to believe are bad or wrong - and how do you reconcile such things as a moral person.
I guess the Genesis of this question for me has to do with actively doing things that you know in your heart are right and True, but that society wants you to believe are bad or wrong - and how do you reconcile such things as a moral person.
Like What kind 0f things?
(Btw, my ‘o’ fell 0ff my keyb0ard and d0esn’t w0rk reliably when I press the place where it used t0 be)
If y0u have a pr0blem rec0nciling things as a “m0ral pers0n” I think that is y0ur pr0blem right there. Read “gene0l0gy 0f M0rals” by Nietzsche.
m0rality isn’t based 0n l0ve. its based m0stly 0n resentment. But anyway, n0t t0 p00 p00 l0ve. L0ve is the main p0int.
But why n0t appear bad and wr0ng? Be a pirate! aargghh!
Seri0usly. If y0u actually decided t0 be bad, it w0uld take y0u a l0ng time t0 start d0ing things that are actually evil. Try real hard t0 be m0ral and it will take y0u n0 time at all.
There are a bunch of things in the Tao Te Ching about this, about how people make up rules to govern behavior when they’ve lost touch with the ultimate source of reality…
When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.
Are y0u thinking of stealing f00d 0r traspassing 0r s0mething, because y0u are hungry and p0tentially h0meless?
If s0, y0u d0n’t have t0 answer but, in my 0pini0n, n0 it d0esn’t vi0late G0d’s law, but might hurt y0ur pride.
I never st0le f00d. But I w0uld fish with0ut a license and I traspass all the time, hike 0ff the trail where it says stay 0n the trail, camp where I want.
Mainly I w0uldn’t want t0 l00k like an idi0t by sh0plifting. This is when I was h0meless. But anyway, ever since then, when I am 0utd00rs signs d0n’t mean much.
Yeah, I am thinking I w0uld like Ta0ism. I was thinking ab0ut Wu Wei 0n my can0e trip fl0wing with the Mississippi. I c0nsidered train h0pping t0 get back but g0t a ride instead.
I think pe0ple actually are under the influence 0f Lucifer. We are inv0lved in a Luciferian rebelli0n. Its n0t s0 much p0sessi0n, but hist0ry we have f0rg0tten. But anyway, pe0ple are 0ut 0f t0uch with the presence 0f G0d in all things and s0 cling t0gether in hierarchies.
One thing I never did d0 is beg. I d0n’t kn0w if I am 0ff 0n a tangent and this m0rality thing has n0thing t0 d0 with being br0ke and hungry. But anyway, I never did beg because I w0uld rather be m0re like a wild animal then a tame 0ne and that is h0w everything gets tamed by begging f0r f00d.
Plus, I didn’t sh0plift, because 0f pride. N0t wanting t0 l00k like a f00l. N0t beause I think its m0ral t0 l0ck up f00d fr0m hungry pe0ple.
but als0 as an anarchist, I think I was a bit wanting t0 excuse being lazy. N0t wanting t0 w0rk and making it a m0ral crusade t0 av0id paying rent. When really it may have partly been a crusade against w0rking.
I am thinking the 0nly real way t0 get 0ut 0f w0rking f0r 0ther pe0ple is t0 w0rk much harder f0r y0urself.
0r y0u can be a pirate. Y0u kn0w, c0n pe0ple. M0st rich pe0ple are that type. Criminals really. And they 0bey G0ds laws t00. Laws 0f nature. Like w0lves. I understand the acti0ns 0f pirates is actually part 0f G0ds will at a higher level. In 3D reality we see p0larity because 0f 0ur ign0rance 0f basically…the ta0.
interesting. we are told by our parents (at least, i was….) to wait for permission to do all manner of things, like feed ourselves for instance. these instructions are given to children for good reasons. the child doesn`t necessarily know what`s edible.
the adult needs to transcend the process of waiting for permission to live his or her life or someone else will make decisions for them.
churches and governments like obedient children and suggest in overt and covert ways that self-actualised adults are somehow criminal.
Yeah, it s0unds funny, but I think really subservient type pe0ple are under a str0ng luciferian influence. Pe0ple that keep their yard real nice and never step 0ut 0f line.
Yeah, you wouldn’t. It’s a submission ritual and it appeals to those who practise the same thing in their daily lives. I’ll give money to someone who opens a door I don’t need opened and holds their hand out because it’s an exchange between equals who are playing different roles at that moment. But I won’t give money to someone who asks for money. They’re begging and they could be doing something productive with their time, body and capacity for speech.
Plus, I didn’t sh0plift, because 0f pride. N0t wanting t0 l00k like a f00l.
Shoplifting would make the store your social better. The store has something you can never have unless you steal it. If you steal it you are acknowledging the superiority of the store and all the social meaning the store has. You have the capacity to harm the store but you choose not to because you’re better than that. You leave your interaction with the store as a proud equal with the store.
Stealing for survival is different. You’re doing what is expected of you as an animal. It violates no rule of nature therefore cannot be judged as harming anything that is a part of nature.
Oh yeah. That’s what I guessed about your 000’s. I was losing my mind at work and had to make a comment.
Yeah, don’t understand these panhandlers. I don’t know how submissive they are though. Some are really pushy and obnoxious. But I guess that is how it would make me feel. They seem fine with it though. There’s lot’s of ‘em here in Madison. Maybe that is why. Strength in numbers.
Some girl got killed not too long ago, in an area with a lot of homeless. I usually don’t give them any money. But once I did, because I found it takes less effort to give them change then not to. Because they control a section of State street. So when I walk by I have to steel myself not to look at them or respond to them. It drains energy. So I threw some change in this one Guys cup. He told me I was a “man of honor” his eyes looked dead.
One other time I actually had no money and I told this Guy that and immediately it was like I was dead to him.
But being a smelly alcaholic panhandler and being homeless are different things. That’s what my experience taught me. You can always be clean, you can always get a job, and you can camp.
There must be quite a few neat, sane homeless, around. Because you wouldn’t know to look at them.
There must be quite a few neat, sane homeless, around. Because you wouldn’t know to look at them.
There are. You don’t know until you’ve known them for a while and can put the pieces together. Sometimes they can talk about it but other times you have to pretend you don’t know.
There are a lot of pushy “homeless” people around. Some are lashing out and some are getting their nerve up for a robbery.
That’s a g00d questi0n. I d0n’t kn0w if I w0uld call street perf0rm ing begging. If y0u are g00d and d0ing y0ur best. But s0me seem m0re like panhandlers than 0thers. There is a c0ntinuum. Panhandler’s are creepy. Maybe if I lived in India 0r s0mething, I w0uld feel differently. M0st 0f them here sm0ke crack 0r are alcah0lics.
as f0r why I w0uldn’t, Well, what it is with me is I am c0ming t0 think that I d0n’t bel0ng t0tally t0 myself. I bel0ng in a sense t0 the Universe. I think there are ways I need t0 be my best. I c0uld panhandle and live in the w00ds and dumpster dive. I think I c0uld. I c0uld be like 0ne 0f th0se Indian dudes. But I feel pressure 0n myself t0 w0rk.
Its a struggle. Because I have a j0b, but I c0uld w0rk a l0t harder t0 devel0p my creativity. I have a r00f 0ver my head and f00d and cl0thing, but everythng I d0 bey0nd my j0b needs t0 be self m0tivated.
I’m here experiencing 3D reality because I have w0rk t0 d0. I am the type 0f guy that c0uld live really simply but its n0t my calling t0 just kind 0f drift.
Like f0r example I c0uld fl0at d0wn the Mississippi and eat turtles all summer if I wanted t0, but I w0uld feel like I am missing 0ut 0n life. But I d0n’t kn0w if that fits f0r y0u. Y0u are a perf0rmer and w0rking 0n music, s0 y0u aren’t just a panhandler. But I’d be w0rried if I were y0u that y0u might get stamped with a street pers0n vibe. Y0u kn0w like, energetically. Get all tannned and listeless l00king. Start getting int0 that energy.
I mean a sp0ntane0us juggler that can just get 0ut in public 0ut 0f sheer j0y and interact with pe0ple, I see as different than relying 0n it f0r change.
I’d like t0 see y0u sell s0me stuff. Its n0t up t0 me. But if y0u want my 0pini0n. Its an imperfect way, maybe, but still a g00d way t0 get feedback. T0 see what is getting blessed. What t0 water and what t0 let die. The pr0testants t00k at as a sign 0f having the blessing 0f G0d if an endeav0r made m0ney. I d0n’t think they were t0tally wr0ng.
But anyway, energetically I think y0u might take 0n a panhandler vibe. Y0u can get vibes that stick with y0u that 0thers sense.
Begging and street performing are very different. The only similarity is that you’re both on the street asking for money. If I want the world to have street performers or bloggers I can support it spiritually, politically and financially to the best of my abilities. Same with river riding turtle eaters. I can support peoples right to do this if thats what they want to do. I just don’t have any turtles to share.
The type of begging me and Ted are talking about is destructive to communities. People harrass you make it a sort of class warfare thing. Being a crack head is a lifestyle choice but not one I’m willing to support. The type of thing your talking about creates and reinforces communities. It builds up non-mainstream lifestyles and helps people connect.
Begging and street performing are very different. The only similarity is that you’re both on the street asking for money.
Not really as I see it: they’re the same thing, except lately I haven’t been asking for money. Both are an act with a specific goal in mind. If you have a better act, you get more money. Being aggressive is a good act because it conviinces people to give you more money. You have to pass the hat around to collect, as it were. You can’t stand idly by.
I’m also not really sure that I agree with being a crackhead being a lifestyle “choice”. It might have been a choice whether or not initially to smoke your first hit of crack but beyond that, it takes many choices of much greater difficulty to undo that first one as it moves out of human control into chemical.
in suburban burlington we get few street people, but in some ways worse are the groups of soccer kids and thier parents angling for “donations” when you are trying to get into starbucks for an americano…..
and i think what the difference between panhandling and performing for money is that there is an exchange of value when a talent is displayed in the form of an act, whereas a direct verbal demand for money is an insult.
They make a choice not to get help. Plus I know people that did coke and never got addicted.
Anyway, I worked at a re-hab with former crack addicts. They can recover. But giveing them money when they are doing drugs is like giving them crack.
They already have free food, and they have acess to shelter. So your pocket change despite what they say is not life or death to them if anything it tips the scales toward death.
I agree that past a certain point the chemicals take over. But, what you choose to do with your mixed up chemistry is more or less under your control. There are crack heads who strip wiring from abandoned buildings or wash cars and there are others who pimp out their younger family members.
When I leave my house I’m not leaving to flaunt my non-drug addicted state in order to hurt the feelings of addicts. And, I’m not trying to be insulted by people richer than me either. I try to think of everybody as equals but if someone refuses to play along I can’t help them.
Were talking about two different types of panhandling. One is respectful for all parties and one reinforces and helps to create negative stereotypes.
I have an odd example. Say my coworker has a can of mixed nuts. I really have a taste for the cashews but my coworker likes them too. She lets me have a lot of cashews even though that makes less for her. She’s happy because she likes me and likes to see me happy. I’m happy because I have a friend who is willing to give up some cashews for me. I didn’t beg her for them and she wouldn’t have given them to me if I had begged. I asked and she gave. It was an exchange between equals. She knows I will give her something when I have it to give.
I want more people in the world like that and I want to be a person like that so those are the seeds I sow. I’ll always have something you need and you’ll always have something I need. The word “asking” has been turned into the insult “begging” by people who want power over others. What should be a positive, sharing experience has been turned into a negating, humilating experience by a society that reinforces lessons learned through cruelty.
I hearby declare you to be the Dean of the newly reconstituted Hobo College, School of Metaphysics. My status as Jack Sheridan’s grandaughter gives me that authority. (He’s an almost famous Chicago hobo philosopher.)
No, I don’t think you understand how this works. Not getting help is the opposite of a choice. In these situations your willpower has been bent to a chemical substance, which is stronger than a human’s willpower. Your “choices” at that point become where and how to get more crack. Making a choice of “getting help” requires someone to be able to get outside of that cycle - which is, incidentally, impossible without outside help. So not seeking help in an addictive situation has nothing to do with being lazy or some kind of worthless person who won’t help themself. You need help to even be able to see that you need help and then even more help to get it.
There are crack heads who strip wiring from abandoned buildings or wash cars and there are others who pimp out their younger family members.
There are people who do these things regardless of crack.
One is respectful for all parties and one reinforces and helps to create negative stereotypes.
I don’t think that when you’re in a desperate situation you’re sitting around worrying about possibly not reinforcing negative stereotypes…
When you’re in a hopeless situation, it’s as though you’re already dead. Can you give someone hope by giving them “change” becomes the question. I guess what I’m talking about is don’t shut down on these people as humans simply because they’re putting on a dominant/aggressive act which they know to work, because we’re all after all animals. And that’s the thing is we are all, after all, animals. If a tiger approached you in the forest because you had fresh meat, would you give it some? What if it growled at you? Would you run away?
Other religions have saints who are beggars, San Lazaro for example: figures of veneration who offer respect or comfort for people in those cultures who find themselves in bad situations and fallen on hard times. When I had my Santeria reading, one of the things my santero said was “Sometimes God sends a spy.” Odin, I think, would dress up as a beggar and the same thing happens with kings in Middle Eastern mythology who venture out beyond the walls of their castle to find out the true nature of their subjects…
I think were talking about two different types of desperate situations. One is when you cross a certain chemical line and are blowing in the wind and you can’t ask for or receive the type of help you need. You rely on the most base mental/cultural programming just to function.
The other type is a choice or the result of a series of choices, a natural process and nothing to be looked down on. It’s insulting to belittle this process but that takes a while to learn and you sort of bring bad karma to yourself if you don’t learn it.
The more I think about this the less I am able to explain what I mean.
The Master leads
by emptying people’s minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.
Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.
Some light bedtime reading. I’m getting more into the Tao the more you post. I even got my Mom seeing the truth in it.
Well all I can say is that I am human too. If God wants to judge me for not enjoying it when pushy people that smell like ass demand money from me for crack…so be it.
I mean, I tend to think God is within me already and not some far off being that would send a spy to test me and try to trip me up.
Plus, I like to be real with people. I like to have a human connection. The panhandler is putting on an act. Being phony. I am being looked at not as a human but instrumentally. Like when that one guy realized I really was broke and it was like I disappeared.
I think its better to act natural than to try to be holier than I am.
Probably all it is is that I usually choose not to buy what panhandlers are selling. The service is kind 0f like end0rphins. Its an exchange 0f end0rphins.
They want y0ur m0ney s0 they can buy end0rphins, y0u give it t0 thembecause giving it t0 them gives y0u happy end0rphins.
Y0u can w0nder if they are a angel and maybe y0u will be blessed. S0 that’s the mystique. That’s the pr0duct they are selling.
I find th0 that if I d0 give them the change I get end0rphins despite myself and then feel like an idi0t.
its a weird thing being a human being. But as far as realizing 0ur c0mm0n humanity, me and the panhandler…I am past that. N0t that that makes me smart 0r anything its just that I see a l0t when I l00k at a pers0n. I see and feel s0 much I can’t be ar0und cr0wds.
I think f0r a l0ng time I have precieved a deeper sense 0f reality but 0nly s0 far. I d0n’t think I’ve advanced much since I was a teen. I want t0 get deeper.
Believe it 0r n0t, Tim. Y0u are G0d. Y0u are being itself and s0 is every0ne else. There is n0thing else t0 make anything 0ut 0f. But yet, we are all unique. We are all 0ne and all 0nes unt0 0urselves.
S0 yeah the panhandler is an angel in disguise….but s0 are y0u.
I alm0st capsized my can0e 0n purp0se the 0ther day, a mile fr0m sh0re 0n the Mississippi. The trick is t0 make it l00k like bad weather just bef0re a t0rnad0 did it. Then I w0uld be a victim.
but I decided I didn’t want t0 d0 it that way. S0 I navigated the 4 f00t waves t0 sh0re. It was a little tricky, because the waves were c0ming n0rth and the river was fl0wing s0uth. I c0uldn’t take the sh0rtest r0ute acr0ss bt had t0 cr0ss diag0nally at 0ne 0f the widest p0ints in the Mississippi. If I were t0 g0 straight acr0ss I w0uld flip and l0se all my gear and the can0e and have t0 swim.
Pe0ple can arrange all kinds 0f fixes. Br0ken arms, diseases, p0verty.
I still say there are two types of panhandling. Both are exchanges but one tends towards negativity and one tends towards a positive more life affirming aspect of human interaction.
Man’s law is m0re 0r less arbitrary. This is what the pirates figured 0ut early 0n. M0st pe0ple didn’t travel much and it was easy t0 c0ncinve pe0ple in th0se days that the King g0t auth0rity directly fr0m G0d.
But the Pirates saw thr0ugh it because each land had different laws. The 0nly thing in c0mm0n was they were meant t0 be 0beyed.
Gods laws are like the Taoist idea of being in the flow of the universe, seeing the unfolding of the great story that we are all involved in, and seeing where we fit into it and the part that we feel we are here to play.
Mens laws are what parts other people expect you to play.
If the two go together for you then you are lucky, but if they differ then follow “Gods Law”
Cool that’s maybe the simplest summary of this, thanks! I think if you’re operating according to God’s laws you know because amazing things are continually happening. Whereas Man’s Laws don’t tend to have transcendent rewards
June 16th, 2008 at 5:39 am
My take:
Laws are transcended when one is in love. Anything that could be called God’s Law must somehow be a communication of this love. Man’s Law is the net that saves us when we fall from love. Not that we break laws when we are in love- true laws are in line with the actions of someone motivated by love.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:33 am
I like that Greg.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:02 am
god`s law is that of what happens and will happen whether the laws of men allow it or not.
for instance; my children love me and want (demand) that they see me in spite of the fact that my ex has full custody. the custody was a term of the seperation…..again, a law written by men that told her to be seperate from me. i wonder what she thought she was before the judgement.
there are no laws written by men that contain, limit or permit love.
this god cat, as we have constructed him, is how we personify the creation of this miracle called life and everything we see, feel and touch……and as such i can see how people groove on the idea of a bloke “up there” who did all of this…….but the fact remains that whatever is going on is outside of our ability to understand it.
but there are those who take the scientific approach that we just haven`t made an instrument sensitive and powerful enough to discover the truth…….
but maybe we already have it.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:27 am
The thing about personification is that it is what our brains are best at doing. We evolved in an atmosphere where the dangers were mostly whether or not we shared well with our neighbor and trusted the right people. We got good at the theory of mind stuff. Theory of mind is our most powerful tool for bringing knowledge and emotions together- a tool that somehow gathers the things that once were mutualism and now are revealed to be life’s discovery of love.
“No laws written by men contain, limit, or permit love” But laws are created out of love.
“this god cat” I love that
June 16th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I think G0d actually is a pers0n.
Its n0t really an uns0phisticated way 0f viewing G0d. I think there is an anthr0pic principle t0 creati0n that is ev0lving t0wards an “0mega p0int”
S0 really being a pers0n is g00d and as we ev0lve we will be m0re 0f 0ur 0wn pers0n with m0re individuality. Its by design.
Since I came t0 understand this, I figured 0ut why I have such an aversi0n t0 c0llectivism.
I als0 think G0d’s laws are based 0n sacred ge0metry and like y0u said Man’s laws are a net, because basically when we d0n’t 0perate 0n the basis 0f l0ve we are a danger t0 each 0ther.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
I think God is a person too. Three persons actually, being a Catholic. But you have to play within the rules of the game set up by evolution. Which I think of as a story God is telling us in which he is almost undetectable. Living fully in that story lets you stand in a solitude that lets indiviuality grow.
Not sure but a link between what I think and what you call sacred geometry might be what I think of as the moral to the story: you leave matter and energy lying around and it reaches for God, for love. Its the way of things.
June 16th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
And an aversion to ooo’s too.
June 16th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
have we evolved greg?
it seems to me that the romans and greeks were struggling with these ideas 2000 years ago……
and god being a person?
possibly. who`s to say.
agnostic over here.
and yeah, if we don`t operate on the basis of love we are a danger to eachother.
June 16th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
I guess the Genesis of this question for me has to do with actively doing things that you know in your heart are right and True, but that society wants you to believe are bad or wrong - and how do you reconcile such things as a moral person.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
i`ve seen people`s morality fail them a thousand times, but thier heart never does.
look at the different types of morality.
muslim.
presbyterian.
dutch reform.
mormon.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Like What kind 0f things?
(Btw, my ‘o’ fell 0ff my keyb0ard and d0esn’t w0rk reliably when I press the place where it used t0 be)
If y0u have a pr0blem rec0nciling things as a “m0ral pers0n” I think that is y0ur pr0blem right there. Read “gene0l0gy 0f M0rals” by Nietzsche.
m0rality isn’t based 0n l0ve. its based m0stly 0n resentment. But anyway, n0t t0 p00 p00 l0ve. L0ve is the main p0int.
But why n0t appear bad and wr0ng? Be a pirate! aargghh!
Seri0usly. If y0u actually decided t0 be bad, it w0uld take y0u a l0ng time t0 start d0ing things that are actually evil. Try real hard t0 be m0ral and it will take y0u n0 time at all.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
There are a bunch of things in the Tao Te Ching about this, about how people make up rules to govern behavior when they’ve lost touch with the ultimate source of reality…
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html
When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Are y0u thinking of stealing f00d 0r traspassing 0r s0mething, because y0u are hungry and p0tentially h0meless?
If s0, y0u d0n’t have t0 answer but, in my 0pini0n, n0 it d0esn’t vi0late G0d’s law, but might hurt y0ur pride.
I never st0le f00d. But I w0uld fish with0ut a license and I traspass all the time, hike 0ff the trail where it says stay 0n the trail, camp where I want.
Mainly I w0uldn’t want t0 l00k like an idi0t by sh0plifting. This is when I was h0meless. But anyway, ever since then, when I am 0utd00rs signs d0n’t mean much.
June 16th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Yeah, I am thinking I w0uld like Ta0ism. I was thinking ab0ut Wu Wei 0n my can0e trip fl0wing with the Mississippi. I c0nsidered train h0pping t0 get back but g0t a ride instead.
I think pe0ple actually are under the influence 0f Lucifer. We are inv0lved in a Luciferian rebelli0n. Its n0t s0 much p0sessi0n, but hist0ry we have f0rg0tten. But anyway, pe0ple are 0ut 0f t0uch with the presence 0f G0d in all things and s0 cling t0gether in hierarchies.
June 16th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
One thing I never did d0 is beg. I d0n’t kn0w if I am 0ff 0n a tangent and this m0rality thing has n0thing t0 d0 with being br0ke and hungry. But anyway, I never did beg because I w0uld rather be m0re like a wild animal then a tame 0ne and that is h0w everything gets tamed by begging f0r f00d.
Plus, I didn’t sh0plift, because 0f pride. N0t wanting t0 l00k like a f00l. N0t beause I think its m0ral t0 l0ck up f00d fr0m hungry pe0ple.
but als0 as an anarchist, I think I was a bit wanting t0 excuse being lazy. N0t wanting t0 w0rk and making it a m0ral crusade t0 av0id paying rent. When really it may have partly been a crusade against w0rking.
I am thinking the 0nly real way t0 get 0ut 0f w0rking f0r 0ther pe0ple is t0 w0rk much harder f0r y0urself.
0r y0u can be a pirate. Y0u kn0w, c0n pe0ple. M0st rich pe0ple are that type. Criminals really. And they 0bey G0ds laws t00. Laws 0f nature. Like w0lves. I understand the acti0ns 0f pirates is actually part 0f G0ds will at a higher level. In 3D reality we see p0larity because 0f 0ur ign0rance 0f basically…the ta0.
June 16th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
interesting. we are told by our parents (at least, i was….) to wait for permission to do all manner of things, like feed ourselves for instance. these instructions are given to children for good reasons. the child doesn`t necessarily know what`s edible.
the adult needs to transcend the process of waiting for permission to live his or her life or someone else will make decisions for them.
churches and governments like obedient children and suggest in overt and covert ways that self-actualised adults are somehow criminal.
cling together in hierarchies……
no shit.
June 16th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Yeah, it s0unds funny, but I think really subservient type pe0ple are under a str0ng luciferian influence. Pe0ple that keep their yard real nice and never step 0ut 0f line.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Yeah, you wouldn’t. It’s a submission ritual and it appeals to those who practise the same thing in their daily lives. I’ll give money to someone who opens a door I don’t need opened and holds their hand out because it’s an exchange between equals who are playing different roles at that moment. But I won’t give money to someone who asks for money. They’re begging and they could be doing something productive with their time, body and capacity for speech.
Shoplifting would make the store your social better. The store has something you can never have unless you steal it. If you steal it you are acknowledging the superiority of the store and all the social meaning the store has. You have the capacity to harm the store but you choose not to because you’re better than that. You leave your interaction with the store as a proud equal with the store.
Stealing for survival is different. You’re doing what is expected of you as an animal. It violates no rule of nature therefore cannot be judged as harming anything that is a part of nature.
Oh yeah. That’s what I guessed about your 000’s. I was losing my mind at work and had to make a comment.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Yeah, don’t understand these panhandlers. I don’t know how submissive they are though. Some are really pushy and obnoxious. But I guess that is how it would make me feel. They seem fine with it though. There’s lot’s of ‘em here in Madison. Maybe that is why. Strength in numbers.
Some girl got killed not too long ago, in an area with a lot of homeless. I usually don’t give them any money. But once I did, because I found it takes less effort to give them change then not to. Because they control a section of State street. So when I walk by I have to steel myself not to look at them or respond to them. It drains energy. So I threw some change in this one Guys cup. He told me I was a “man of honor” his eyes looked dead.
One other time I actually had no money and I told this Guy that and immediately it was like I was dead to him.
But being a smelly alcaholic panhandler and being homeless are different things. That’s what my experience taught me. You can always be clean, you can always get a job, and you can camp.
There must be quite a few neat, sane homeless, around. Because you wouldn’t know to look at them.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
There are. You don’t know until you’ve known them for a while and can put the pieces together. Sometimes they can talk about it but other times you have to pretend you don’t know.
There are a lot of pushy “homeless” people around. Some are lashing out and some are getting their nerve up for a robbery.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:15 am
Having been dabbling in those arts lately, I really don’t understand what’s so wrong with begging that you guys are seeing…
June 17th, 2008 at 2:19 am
Well…
That’s a g00d questi0n. I d0n’t kn0w if I w0uld call street perf0rm ing begging. If y0u are g00d and d0ing y0ur best. But s0me seem m0re like panhandlers than 0thers. There is a c0ntinuum. Panhandler’s are creepy. Maybe if I lived in India 0r s0mething, I w0uld feel differently. M0st 0f them here sm0ke crack 0r are alcah0lics.
as f0r why I w0uldn’t, Well, what it is with me is I am c0ming t0 think that I d0n’t bel0ng t0tally t0 myself. I bel0ng in a sense t0 the Universe. I think there are ways I need t0 be my best. I c0uld panhandle and live in the w00ds and dumpster dive. I think I c0uld. I c0uld be like 0ne 0f th0se Indian dudes. But I feel pressure 0n myself t0 w0rk.
Its a struggle. Because I have a j0b, but I c0uld w0rk a l0t harder t0 devel0p my creativity. I have a r00f 0ver my head and f00d and cl0thing, but everythng I d0 bey0nd my j0b needs t0 be self m0tivated.
I’m here experiencing 3D reality because I have w0rk t0 d0. I am the type 0f guy that c0uld live really simply but its n0t my calling t0 just kind 0f drift.
Like f0r example I c0uld fl0at d0wn the Mississippi and eat turtles all summer if I wanted t0, but I w0uld feel like I am missing 0ut 0n life. But I d0n’t kn0w if that fits f0r y0u. Y0u are a perf0rmer and w0rking 0n music, s0 y0u aren’t just a panhandler. But I’d be w0rried if I were y0u that y0u might get stamped with a street pers0n vibe. Y0u kn0w like, energetically. Get all tannned and listeless l00king. Start getting int0 that energy.
I mean a sp0ntane0us juggler that can just get 0ut in public 0ut 0f sheer j0y and interact with pe0ple, I see as different than relying 0n it f0r change.
I’d like t0 see y0u sell s0me stuff. Its n0t up t0 me. But if y0u want my 0pini0n. Its an imperfect way, maybe, but still a g00d way t0 get feedback. T0 see what is getting blessed. What t0 water and what t0 let die. The pr0testants t00k at as a sign 0f having the blessing 0f G0d if an endeav0r made m0ney. I d0n’t think they were t0tally wr0ng.
But anyway, energetically I think y0u might take 0n a panhandler vibe. Y0u can get vibes that stick with y0u that 0thers sense.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Begging and street performing are very different. The only similarity is that you’re both on the street asking for money. If I want the world to have street performers or bloggers I can support it spiritually, politically and financially to the best of my abilities. Same with river riding turtle eaters. I can support peoples right to do this if thats what they want to do. I just don’t have any turtles to share.
The type of begging me and Ted are talking about is destructive to communities. People harrass you make it a sort of class warfare thing. Being a crack head is a lifestyle choice but not one I’m willing to support. The type of thing your talking about creates and reinforces communities. It builds up non-mainstream lifestyles and helps people connect.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Not really as I see it: they’re the same thing, except lately I haven’t been asking for money. Both are an act with a specific goal in mind. If you have a better act, you get more money. Being aggressive is a good act because it conviinces people to give you more money. You have to pass the hat around to collect, as it were. You can’t stand idly by.
I’m also not really sure that I agree with being a crackhead being a lifestyle “choice”. It might have been a choice whether or not initially to smoke your first hit of crack but beyond that, it takes many choices of much greater difficulty to undo that first one as it moves out of human control into chemical.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
in suburban burlington we get few street people, but in some ways worse are the groups of soccer kids and thier parents angling for “donations” when you are trying to get into starbucks for an americano…..
and i think what the difference between panhandling and performing for money is that there is an exchange of value when a talent is displayed in the form of an act, whereas a direct verbal demand for money is an insult.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
They make a choice not to get help. Plus I know people that did coke and never got addicted.
Anyway, I worked at a re-hab with former crack addicts. They can recover. But giveing them money when they are doing drugs is like giving them crack.
They already have free food, and they have acess to shelter. So your pocket change despite what they say is not life or death to them if anything it tips the scales toward death.
June 17th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I agree that past a certain point the chemicals take over. But, what you choose to do with your mixed up chemistry is more or less under your control. There are crack heads who strip wiring from abandoned buildings or wash cars and there are others who pimp out their younger family members.
When I leave my house I’m not leaving to flaunt my non-drug addicted state in order to hurt the feelings of addicts. And, I’m not trying to be insulted by people richer than me either. I try to think of everybody as equals but if someone refuses to play along I can’t help them.
Were talking about two different types of panhandling. One is respectful for all parties and one reinforces and helps to create negative stereotypes.
I have an odd example. Say my coworker has a can of mixed nuts. I really have a taste for the cashews but my coworker likes them too. She lets me have a lot of cashews even though that makes less for her. She’s happy because she likes me and likes to see me happy. I’m happy because I have a friend who is willing to give up some cashews for me. I didn’t beg her for them and she wouldn’t have given them to me if I had begged. I asked and she gave. It was an exchange between equals. She knows I will give her something when I have it to give.
I want more people in the world like that and I want to be a person like that so those are the seeds I sow. I’ll always have something you need and you’ll always have something I need. The word “asking” has been turned into the insult “begging” by people who want power over others. What should be a positive, sharing experience has been turned into a negating, humilating experience by a society that reinforces lessons learned through cruelty.
June 17th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I hearby declare you to be the Dean of the newly reconstituted Hobo College, School of Metaphysics. My status as Jack Sheridan’s grandaughter gives me that authority. (He’s an almost famous Chicago hobo philosopher.)
http://www.streetroots.org/past_issues/2006/07_02/cover.shtml
June 17th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
No, I don’t think you understand how this works. Not getting help is the opposite of a choice. In these situations your willpower has been bent to a chemical substance, which is stronger than a human’s willpower. Your “choices” at that point become where and how to get more crack. Making a choice of “getting help” requires someone to be able to get outside of that cycle - which is, incidentally, impossible without outside help. So not seeking help in an addictive situation has nothing to do with being lazy or some kind of worthless person who won’t help themself. You need help to even be able to see that you need help and then even more help to get it.
There are people who do these things regardless of crack.
I don’t think that when you’re in a desperate situation you’re sitting around worrying about possibly not reinforcing negative stereotypes…
June 17th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
I think the chorus of this song I wrote is totally directed at this question:
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2008/03/02/big-elk-the-bottle-lyrics/
When you’re in a hopeless situation, it’s as though you’re already dead. Can you give someone hope by giving them “change” becomes the question. I guess what I’m talking about is don’t shut down on these people as humans simply because they’re putting on a dominant/aggressive act which they know to work, because we’re all after all animals. And that’s the thing is we are all, after all, animals. If a tiger approached you in the forest because you had fresh meat, would you give it some? What if it growled at you? Would you run away?
Other religions have saints who are beggars, San Lazaro for example: figures of veneration who offer respect or comfort for people in those cultures who find themselves in bad situations and fallen on hard times. When I had my Santeria reading, one of the things my santero said was “Sometimes God sends a spy.” Odin, I think, would dress up as a beggar and the same thing happens with kings in Middle Eastern mythology who venture out beyond the walls of their castle to find out the true nature of their subjects…
June 17th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
I think were talking about two different types of desperate situations. One is when you cross a certain chemical line and are blowing in the wind and you can’t ask for or receive the type of help you need. You rely on the most base mental/cultural programming just to function.
The other type is a choice or the result of a series of choices, a natural process and nothing to be looked down on. It’s insulting to belittle this process but that takes a while to learn and you sort of bring bad karma to yourself if you don’t learn it.
The more I think about this the less I am able to explain what I mean.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
The Master leads
by emptying people’s minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html
June 17th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?b...=13&version=9&context=chapter
This is another chapter I “accidentally” found a referrence to people seeking a supernatural city.
Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.
Some light bedtime reading. I’m getting more into the Tao the more you post. I even got my Mom seeing the truth in it.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Well all I can say is that I am human too. If God wants to judge me for not enjoying it when pushy people that smell like ass demand money from me for crack…so be it.
I mean, I tend to think God is within me already and not some far off being that would send a spy to test me and try to trip me up.
Plus, I like to be real with people. I like to have a human connection. The panhandler is putting on an act. Being phony. I am being looked at not as a human but instrumentally. Like when that one guy realized I really was broke and it was like I disappeared.
I think its better to act natural than to try to be holier than I am.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:56 am
Probably my “sin” is seeing panhandlers as no different from me.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:16 am
I like this.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:53 am
I’m not accusing you of sinning. I wouldn’t know anything about that.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Well I wasn’t really saying you were accusing me.
Probably all it is is that I usually choose not to buy what panhandlers are selling. The service is kind 0f like end0rphins. Its an exchange 0f end0rphins.
They want y0ur m0ney s0 they can buy end0rphins, y0u give it t0 thembecause giving it t0 them gives y0u happy end0rphins.
Y0u can w0nder if they are a angel and maybe y0u will be blessed. S0 that’s the mystique. That’s the pr0duct they are selling.
I find th0 that if I d0 give them the change I get end0rphins despite myself and then feel like an idi0t.
its a weird thing being a human being. But as far as realizing 0ur c0mm0n humanity, me and the panhandler…I am past that. N0t that that makes me smart 0r anything its just that I see a l0t when I l00k at a pers0n. I see and feel s0 much I can’t be ar0und cr0wds.
I think f0r a l0ng time I have precieved a deeper sense 0f reality but 0nly s0 far. I d0n’t think I’ve advanced much since I was a teen. I want t0 get deeper.
Believe it 0r n0t, Tim. Y0u are G0d. Y0u are being itself and s0 is every0ne else. There is n0thing else t0 make anything 0ut 0f. But yet, we are all unique. We are all 0ne and all 0nes unt0 0urselves.
S0 yeah the panhandler is an angel in disguise….but s0 are y0u.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I’m not God and panhandlers aren’t selling a product
June 18th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
yeah huh!
June 18th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
What are y0u then? cells? At0ms?
June 18th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
N0ne 0f us are vict0ms.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Victims of what?
June 18th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
crack, life, etc.
I alm0st capsized my can0e 0n purp0se the 0ther day, a mile fr0m sh0re 0n the Mississippi. The trick is t0 make it l00k like bad weather just bef0re a t0rnad0 did it. Then I w0uld be a victim.
but I decided I didn’t want t0 d0 it that way. S0 I navigated the 4 f00t waves t0 sh0re. It was a little tricky, because the waves were c0ming n0rth and the river was fl0wing s0uth. I c0uldn’t take the sh0rtest r0ute acr0ss bt had t0 cr0ss diag0nally at 0ne 0f the widest p0ints in the Mississippi. If I were t0 g0 straight acr0ss I w0uld flip and l0se all my gear and the can0e and have t0 swim.
Pe0ple can arrange all kinds 0f fixes. Br0ken arms, diseases, p0verty.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I still say there are two types of panhandling. Both are exchanges but one tends towards negativity and one tends towards a positive more life affirming aspect of human interaction.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
But how does any of this related to the original question posed by this post?
June 18th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Not much. I could make up something to keep the conversation going though.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Y0u c0uld have directed it t0 the t0pic m0re, Tim. I asked y0u what types 0f things y0u were thinking 0f and y0u never really said.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Man’s law is m0re 0r less arbitrary. This is what the pirates figured 0ut early 0n. M0st pe0ple didn’t travel much and it was easy t0 c0ncinve pe0ple in th0se days that the King g0t auth0rity directly fr0m G0d.
But the Pirates saw thr0ugh it because each land had different laws. The 0nly thing in c0mm0n was they were meant t0 be 0beyed.
Pirates 0beyed the laws 0f nature.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Pirates?
http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/03/...-wont-pay-for-his-downloads/#comments
June 19th, 2008 at 7:27 am
Cor, missed a good one here. I’ll think I’ll leave it to the Alabama 3:
*
If you see me standing on the corner
Money in my hand
I ain’t waiting for no taxi, honey,
I’m waiting for my man
He ain’t selling heroin
He ain’t selling crack cocaine
He gonna fill you up with that stuff
Takes you to a higher plane
Shoot me up!
Shoot me up!
Shoot me up!
With a hypo full o’ Love…
[lyrics from memory, apologies]
June 19th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Gods laws are like the Taoist idea of being in the flow of the universe, seeing the unfolding of the great story that we are all involved in, and seeing where we fit into it and the part that we feel we are here to play.
Mens laws are what parts other people expect you to play.
If the two go together for you then you are lucky, but if they differ then follow “Gods Law”
June 20th, 2008 at 12:26 am
Cool that’s maybe the simplest summary of this, thanks! I think if you’re operating according to God’s laws you know because amazing things are continually happening. Whereas Man’s Laws don’t tend to have transcendent rewards